A CHALLENGE to Cipher and Bethug (merged with Seanjohn's "apology" thread)

[seanjohn]

I was going to post this under one of their threads but I reckon starting a new thread of my own could get more attention from the audience and of course Cipher and Bethug themselves. I have nothing ad hominem against these two individuals, just that I believe this inquiry would enlighten those ignorants including myself.

My challenge is composed of two parts, one in reasoning and one experimental.

First, please answer the following questions.Their subject is but simple and conceivable by anybody with a reasonable firmness:

1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. In Bethug's case, he has a day job and he also runs an online portal and from time to time you see him begging people to join through his site (confer posts over WOL). I am not familiar with what Cipher does for living but he sure has a job when Cipher mentioned he got clients all over the world. Shouldn't you be making more money than Bill Gates gambling online? And you decide to have a real day job? For the benefit of public?

2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos? You win 3-5 sessions with bonuses at any online casino you are banned. You win 10 sessions with no bonuses, em...they will probably let you stay, but winning 10 sessions itself is a tough feat anyway. How about winning 20 or 30? Or in Cipher's case with Casino Fortune...48 out of 50?! Anybody who runs a casino with half a brain will ban a customer winning that much, online or onland.

3, Loopholes don't exist, period. If they do, casinos don't exist. If a player finds a loophole and wins lots of cash, he will eventually be spotted and banned and the loophole fixed. If it was programmer and exploits a loophole he plotted when he was hired to write the software, both himself and his family and friends would be making millions, and the casino is dead. Could you oppose my logic?

4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone? And up to this point no casino has spotted you, you being so arrogant in the public? Answer to this question is because you are lying and you are losers to them. So they don't mind long-term losers bragging about short-term wins.

5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table? Why not post a few rules here for public scrutiny? Those who are interested could try it and see if it really works. THAT would shut me up if veterans like Caruso and Clayman turns up saying "Hey it works!!".

Secondly, if you were that good, why don't you show us how you can make money anyday. Why dont' we all go to Intercasino and watch you play 300 hands of any games you choose and see how you beat the casino for 3 days in a row? Would be better if you guys signed up through Casinomeister's affiliate link.

Of course, taking up the experimental challenge might not be practicable due to time zone differences and the like and I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not obliged to, but ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

To conquer, use reasoning.
Please conquer me.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by seanjohn

I was going to post this under one of their threads but I reckon starting a new thread of my own could get more attention from the audience and of course Cipher and Bethug themselves. I have nothing ad hominem against these two individuals, just that I believe this inquiry would enlighten those ignorants including myself.

My challenge is composed of two parts, one in reasoning and one experimental.

First, please answer the following questions.Their subject is but simple and conceivable by anybody with a reasonable firmness:

1, Why would you need a boss/client when you have an edge in online gambling?. In Bethug's case, he has a day job and he also runs an online portal and from time to time you see him begging people to join through his site (confer posts over WOL). I am not familiar with what Cipher does for living but he sure has a job when Cipher mentioned he got clients all over the world. Shouldn't you be making more money than Bill Gates gambling online? And you decide to have a real day job? For the benefit of public?

2, Why aren't you banned by online casinos? You win 3-5 sessions with bonuses at any online casino you are banned. You win 10 sessions with no bonuses, em...they will probably let you stay, but winning 10 sessions itself is a tough feat anyway. How about winning 20 or 30? Or in Cipher's case with Casino Fortune...48 out of 50?! Anybody who runs a casino with half a brain will ban a customer winning that much, online or onland.

3, Loopholes don't exist, period. If they do, casinos don't exist. If a player finds a loophole and wins lots of cash, he will eventually be spotted and banned and the loophole fixed. If it was programmer and exploits a loophole he plotted when he was hired to write the software, both himself and his family and friends would be making millions, and the casino is dead. Could you oppose my logic?

4, Why wouldn't you do it secretly but instead going about telling everyone? And up to this point no casino has spotted you, you being so arrogant in the public? Answer to this question is because you are lying and you are losers to them. So they don't mind long-term losers bragging about short-term wins.

5, Why up to this point none of you have really put your strategy at the table? Why not post a few rules here for public scrutiny? Those who are interested could try it and see if it really works. THAT would shut me up if veterans like Caruso and Clayman turns up saying "Hey it works!!".

Secondly, if you were that good, why don't you show us how you can make money anyday. Why dont' we all go to Intercasino and watch you play 300 hands of any games you choose and see how you beat the casino for 3 days in a row? Would be better if you guys signed up through Casinomeister's affiliate link.

Of course, taking up the experimental challenge might not be practicable due to time zone differences and the like and I give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not obliged to, but ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

To conquer, use reasoning.
Please conquer me.

Let me tell you something!!! I don't know who you are or what rock you've crawled out from under or if in fact you've even got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. But when you run the word CHALLENGE up the old flag pole to me that indicates that you are willing to invest something in this other than running your mouth.

Now if that's the case, then by all means put up or shut up. There's no need at all to come up with one of these contrived schemes. Everything that I've done over the past six plus years is very well documented by the casinos themselves.

[spearmaster]

If that is not an idiot post, I don't know what is... sheesh.

Neither Bethug nor Cipher are obliged to respond to that, much less be called liars and chickens. On the other hand, your post, ad hominem, shows that you are truly an ignorant with no regard for anyone but yourself.

[universexf6]

What is this shit by seanjohn??

I think you better read newspapers than writing such a long
composed literature. I fell asleep when I read half.

[sw2003]

Hey may be that guy would like to put down $10K for each person that he is challenging! If any of them proved to be right, his $10K will be given to that person. How about that? If he doesn't take it up, he is a chicken!

This post is bordering on the rude and offensive side! I agree because of its nature, one shouldn't even really need to reply to it! But anyway ............

[Casinomeister]

Seanjohn was banned for 30 days with his comment in this thread
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...0832#post40832

Where I replied with this:

...Like I mentioned before - and this applies to everyone - expressing oneself is fine, but it should be done without needless subjectivity (or negativity). There is no need to make comments such these, I have been giving everyone fair warning about this.

This is not a board where insulting or flippant remarks are tolerated. seanjohn's account has been suspended for 30 days.

The only bullshit in this thread are comments like Seanjohn's.

And my word to everyone - knock it off, I'm serious as a heart attack

Well it looks like this suspension did no good.

Originally Posted by seanjohn

...ignoring or not answering in FULL the above questions in the first part could only entail that you guys are nothing but liars and chickens.

That's pretty strong language for someone on probabtion (yes probabtion).
Banned again. This time for 90 days. Next time it's for good.

[bethug]

Can even have a holiday in peace.
Happy thankgiven to all.

I love all the real players out there

[Petunia]

**Was it not written "He with the bigger mouth has the smaller IQ?**

What can one say?

[caruso]

This is a rather odd reaction to a not unreasonable thread. The only aggressive remark was "liars and chickens", and I've seen a lot worse from many other posters (not just me). The poster is clearly intelligent, although he doesn't express himself as well as he could. Informed players have been trying - and failing - to call progressionists to substantiate their nonsensical claims since the first blackjack hand was played. Michael Shakelford's 20K challenge is more than enough to put these claims to bed once and for all. He is offering a ten to one bet against any "system" beating the house. He has had one taker - that failed, after 150,000 hands. Of the two possible contenders here, one has said Shakelford probably cheats and the other one has apparently STILL failed to elicit a reply.

I agree with the above remark to put up or shut up, and I'm very, very empathetic with the poster's point of view. The only people who benefit from the claim that betting systems can beat negative value games are casinos, because, like it or not, there are readers out there who will believe what they read and try it for themselves - I nearly did, once. Those people will lose money in the endeavour. That bothers me. The fact that they're adults who are old enough to think for themselves does mitigate against that, but I'm not the only person to find extremely irritating that these misleading and false claims constantly get aired.

Betting systems cannot overcome the house advantage. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are either foolish or malicious. If you don't understand why and want to know, ask me and I'll explain in detail.

[spearmaster]

Let me ask you something, Caruso.

Right or wrong, fair or not, how would you respond to a challenge like that which essentially insults the target?

If I insult you even if I am totally right, are you supposed to just say "Ok, you're right?"

Anyone can beat the house over a short term if they know what they are doing. No one can beat the house over a long term - you cannot overcome a house edge given infinite time.

Having not studied either Bethug's or Cipher's methods or claims in any detail, I won't comment further on them. But I most definitely object to the manner in which they were challenged.