MG slot HOT INK

jshort

Banned user -- being a troll
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I've put in well over a 1000 spins. The RTP approximates to the theoretical TRTP just fine/normal but the re-spin feature of individual reels appears to have been specially modified to keep the variance of the entire game constant :what:


Ex. Suppose I re-spin the first four reels so that the "blueberry" symbol appears on each of them. If I respin the 5th reel, the blueberry symbol shows up less than 5% of the time??? I did one experiment where out of 97 spins of one the reels, the blueberry symbol only showed up 3 times! On the other hand, if I don't have a blueberry on each of the four other reels, then a blueberry will show up about 50% of the time if I respin the 5th reel!
 
That's very interesting and if true, means the slot does not work the way I thought it did.
I'll have a go myself later & see if I get the same sort of results.

KK

I first noticed it when I experimented with the respinning feature to try and create a "low risk" game. First
I tried spinning one reel with 4 wilds on the others. Then I tried re-spinning with identical symbols on the
other 3 or 4 reels. NOTHING WORKED :mad:

I reccommend experimenting with the blueberry symbol as its the easiest to notice changes in its probability/weighing on the reel.

FYI; The TRTP is definitely reduced in some respinning "scenarios". For instance, if you use the re-spin feature when its 0.01 / spin, the TRTP = 0%!
 
I've put in well over a 1000 spins. The RTP approximates to the theoretical TRTP just fine/normal but the re-spin feature of individual reels appears to have been specially modified to keep the variance of the entire game constant :what:


Ex. Suppose I re-spin the first four reels so that the "blueberry" symbol appears on each of them. If I respin the 5th reel, the blueberry symbol shows up less than 5% of the time??? I did one experiment where out of 97 spins of one the reels, the blueberry symbol only showed up 3 times! On the other hand, if I don't have a blueberry on each of the four other reels, then a blueberry will show up about 50% of the time if I respin the 5th reel!

I thought everybody knew that MG slots use weighted reels? Anyway doesn't really surprise me...

Good job discovering this because that game has been out for at least five years :)
 
If I respin the 5th reel, the blueberry symbol shows up less than 5% of the time??? I did one experiment where out of 97 spins of one the reels, the blueberry symbol only showed up 3 times! On the other hand, if I don't have a blueberry on each of the four other reels, then a blueberry will show up about 50% of the time if I respin the 5th reel!

This is strange! 3 of 97??? :eek2: It's definately alarming. This indicates that the game clearly remembers your choice and the outcome is not random.

I tried it for fun in freeplay now but didn't see any strange things, I will try it some more.


Good job discovering this because that game has been out for at least five years :)

It's around 3 years old!
 
I thought everybody knew that MG slots use weighted reels? Anyway doesn't really surprise me...

Good job discovering this because that game has been out for at least five years :)
SOME MG slot use weighted reels, yes. But the vast majority of the older ones use proper reel-strips with a equal chance of landing on each symbol.

Hot Ink was released January 2011.
Immortal Romance was released December 2011.

KK
 
OK, so I did 100 spins not holding anything, then 100 holding Blueberries on reels 1-4 and these were my results:

No hold: 60 times
Holding: 52 times

Those figures are too close to say there is any weighting.
Maybe some other people could give it a try & see what they get?

KK
 
OK, so I did 100 spins not holding anything, then 100 holding Blueberries on reels 1-4 and these were my results:

No hold: 60 times
Holding: 52 times

Those figures are too close to say there is any weighting.
Maybe some other people could give it a try & see what they get?

KK

Those are fairly close, I'm surprised.

Ultimately it was the variance I couldn't lower. In your "holding" condition, you paid "0.33" / re-spin and the wins would have been 0.50 when you hit yes (or some multiple of 0.33 / 0.5)? I can calculate the variance if those numbers are accurate.
 
Try putting two different symbols on reels 1-4 (one of them should be blueberries as its easier get ahold of) and then re-spinning the 5th for blueberries. Might work????

Another experiment would be to put three different symbols on reels 1-3 and then re-spinning the 4th for blueberries.
 
This is strange! 3 of 97??? :eek2: It's definately alarming. This indicates that the game clearly remembers your choice and the outcome is not random.

I tried it for fun in freeplay now but didn't see any strange things, I will try it some more.




It's around 3 years old!

FYI; When I played the TRTP seems to stay constant more or less (unless it was 0% for 0.01 / re-spin).
 
I just tried this @ £2.50 stake with 5 pool ball blueberry things. I won £5.50 and the respin cost me £3.27.

The blueberry thing came in again for the next twelve consecutive spins - once twice.

Am I doing something wrong!???
 
I just tried it also on 2.50 bet and the respin cost me 1.64 and the blueberry fell in almost every spin giving me 2.50 to 5 back per spin so maybe it depends on what other symbols you have with the blueberry on the other reels? As far as I can tell it plays normal.
 
I just tried this @ £2.50 stake with 5 pool ball blueberry things. I won £5.50 and the respin cost me £3.27.

The blueberry thing came in again for the next twelve consecutive spins - once twice.

Am I doing something wrong!???


Just make sure the four reels your NOT re-spinning have pool ball blue berries. The reel thats re-spun doesn't necessarily have to be the 5th reel.

Also, I definitely should've mentioned this earlier but the trial where I got 3/97 successes also had the "HORSESHOE" and "STAR" symbol on three and four of the reels as well. I was re-spinning the 2nd reel in this case (as reels 1,3,4 and 5 all had the pool ball blueberry symbol).
 
I just tried it also on 2.50 bet and the respin cost me 1.64 and the blueberry fell in almost every spin giving me 2.50 to 5 back per spin so maybe it depends on what other symbols you have with the blueberry on the other reels? As far as I can tell it plays normal.

I think it does depend on the other symbols as well. Sorry didn't mention earlier. In the 3/97 case I had, the HORSESHOE and STAR symbol were present on three and four of the other reels as well (I was re-spinning the 2nd reel as reels 1,3,4,5 all had pool ball blueberries).

I didn't mention earlier, but one thing that is definitely different about this slot compared to others, is that it doesn't pay you for getting identical symbols on the first four reels if your respinning the 5th one. BUT...........If your NOT respinning individual reels and just using the regular "spin" button and you happen to get identical symbols on the first three or four reels, then you WILL get a payout. WEIRD!
 
Also, I definitely should've mentioned this earlier but the trial where I got 3/97 successes also had the "HORSESHOE" and "STAR" symbol on three and four of the reels as well. I was re-spinning the 2nd reel in this case (as reels 1,3,4 and 5 all had the pool ball blueberry symbol).

This is what I noticed as well (it was very few blueberries on second reel, but instead other wins occured), that's why you can have a nice RTP even if you don't hit 5oak blueberries. We have to think as we only see a win presentation, the symbols probably don't matter at all.
 
I thought everybody knew that MG slots use weighted reels? Anyway doesn't really surprise me...

Good job discovering this because that game has been out for at least five years :)

maybe he forgot so just confirming, mrmark21 doesn't play MG anymore......:D
 
This is what I noticed as well (it was very few blueberries on second reel, but instead other wins occured), that's why you can have a nice RTP even if you don't hit 5oak blueberries. We have to think as we only see a win presentation, the symbols probably don't matter at all.

So it would appear.

MG appears to have cleverly designed this slot so as to not only keep the TRTP relatively constant (well......) but also limit how low the variance can be possibly be. The trial that had the 3/97 successes occured after attempting to construct a "low-risk" strategy. On the day I did that experiment, I had built up a big balance (real money), but needed to fullfil a WR before withdrawing. My first thought was to bet on BOTH "red" and "black" at Roulette as its a "low-risk" strategy, but online casinos don't like that.

I knew that "in theory" if Hot Ink played like a regular slot, one could strategically use the re-spin feature of this game to create a very "low-risk" outcome. It never worked for me and I eventually recorded the 3/97 result. Even worse, I noticed that having four indentical symbols on the first 4 reels payed NOTHING if you we're using the re-spin feature on the 5th reel. As mentioned the TRTP seemed to stay true, but the ups and downs still remained undesirably volitile!

v
 
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Also, I definitely should've mentioned this earlier but the trial where I got 3/97 successes also had the "HORSESHOE" and "STAR" symbol on three and four of the reels as well. I was re-spinning the 2nd reel in this case (as reels 1,3,4 and 5 all had the pool ball blueberry symbol).
Yes, you SHOULD have mentioned that earlier - makes a huge difference.
It's a well known fact that each reel has a different reel-strip, so the odds of any particular symbol appearing on each reel can be vastly different.

The way I assumed this type of slot works is this:
The software looks at the symbols showing on each "set" of 4 reels, and then calculates the payout for each possible finishing position on the reel to be re-spun.
It adds all those wins up & divides by the number of positions on that reel.
It then takes this average win figure and adds on the 2.5% HE to make the cost of the spin.

This WOULD make the variance very low for certain symbols on certain reels - such as the aforementioned Blueberry on reel 5, because it occurs very frequently.

KK
 
maybe he forgot so just confirming, mrmark21 doesn't play MG anymore......:D

I'm going to be blunt and say that I'm not even sure what the definition of a "weighed" slot is :eek2:

When I first saw this word being thrown around when I saw it last month (I'm newish), I interpreted it
as meaning that each symbol doesn't have an equal chance of appearing on the reel. THAT'S IT. I figured
most slots had to be weighed at least somewhat as obviously WILDS and SCATTER symbols show up less often than other symbols.

Non of this explains the Hot Ink slot though. For this game, the actual "weighting" of each symbol changes based on what symbols appear on
the OTHER REELS.
 
I'm going to be blunt and say that I'm not even sure what the definition of a "weighed" slot is :eek2:

When I first saw this word being thrown around when I saw it last month (I'm newish), I interpreted it as meaning that each symbol doesn't have an equal chance of appearing on the reel. THAT'S IT.
I figured most slots had to be weighed at least somewhat as obviously WILDS and SCATTER symbols show up less often than other symbols.
First part: Correct. Wiegthed slots need only 1 of each symbol on each reel as they DON'T have an equal chance of landing on the win-line. (Some weighted slot may have more than 1 of some symbols on the reels, but the same principal applies).

Second part: Incorrect. The Wilds & Scatters show up less often simply because there are less of them on each reel than the other symbols. Online slots can have up to 100+ symbols on a reel (though most are typically in the 30-50 range), so if there's only 1 scatter but 10 Cherries, the Cherries are 10 times more likely to appear.
You can see a visual of this by looking at some of the reel layouts on my SlotBeaters site
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.

Non of this explains the Hot Ink slot though. For this game, the actual "weighting" of each symbol changes based on what symbols appear on the OTHER REELS.
I can't prove it, but my personal opionion is that Hot Ink is a truly random slot, not wieghted. i.e. I think each reel has a fixed reel-strip and each position on each reel has an exactly equal chance of appearing whether on a "normal" spin or a re-spin.

KK
 
Ex. Suppose I re-spin the first four reels so that the "blueberry" symbol appears on each of them. If I respin the 5th reel, the blueberry symbol shows up less than 5% of the time??? I did one experiment where out of 97 spins of one the reels, the blueberry symbol only showed up 3 times! On the other hand, if I don't have a blueberry on each of the four other reels, then a blueberry will show up about 50% of the time if I respin the 5th reel!


Also, I definitely should've mentioned this earlier but the trial where I got 3/97 successes also had the "HORSESHOE" and "STAR" symbol on three and four of the reels as well. I was re-spinning the 2nd reel in this case (as reels 1,3,4 and 5 all had the pool ball blueberry symbol).

You are comparing apples to oranges here: respinning reel#2 vs spinning reel#5. Here are the layouts for these two reels:

Reel#2: 0,7,9,5,7,2,9,5,6,9,1,7,3,9,4,7,9,3,7,9,4,7,12,9,4,7,9,5,7,4,9,7,3,9,8,7,10,3,7,9,5,11,7,9
Reel#5: 0,6,7,8,3,10,6,5,7,4,8,6,10,5,8,3,9,1,6,5,8,9,4,6,3,8,9,2,10,11,7,8,3,9,10,12,7,2,10,9,7,10,9,7

(10 = Blueberry, 0 = Wild, 8 = Shine Star)

So there's only 1 blueberry on reel 2 out of the total of 44 symbols. We have 4 horizontal lines, so the probability of seeing a blueberry on a random spin of reel #2 equals 4/44 = 0.09
Now, assuming independent spins, the probability of seeing 3 or less blueberries out of 97 spins equals 0.02 - which is pretty small, but way short of being a sign of a problem.

On reel 5 we have 6 blueberry symbols, and two of them are close enough to appear on one screen, so exact probabilities will be a little tricky, but a rough (6*4)/44 = 0.54 is pretty close to your estimate of 50%.

And now, here is how the cost of a respin is calculated. Assume the slot positions are:

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The 10 possible winning combinations for reel# 2 respin are

0,7,9,5 Payout = 275
7,3,9,8 Payout = 25
3,9,8,7 Payout = 25
9,8,7,10 Payout = 275
8,7,10,3 Payout = 275
7,10,3,7 Payout = 250
10,3,7,9 Payout = 250
11,7,9,0 Payout = 275
7,9,0,7 Payout = 275
9,0,7,9 Payout = 275

The remaining 34 produce a 0 payout, so assuming all 44 have an equal probability the average payout is the simple summation of the above numbers divided by forty four, 2200/ 44 = 50 cents even. Finally, to account for the 2.5% HA we need to divide it by 0.975, and we get 51.28. And then Microgaming rounds it up to 52 cents.

BTW, this rounding is their trick, the actual HA effectively becomes higher than 2.5% if your bet is small (in my example it equals 3.8%), and WAY higher than 2.5% if you bet the bare minimum (can be as high as 10% in some cases, an RTP of 90% !)
 

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