Do I have a right to ask for a refund?

WolframBeta

Banned User - multiple forum accounts - troll - no
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Mar 19, 2014
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The situation is pretty straightforward, and before I take further actions I'm asking the members of the forums for opinions so that I don't make a fool out of myself if I don't have the right to a refund.

I'm a US player. Recently I deposited $400 at a US-facing casino. The bank charged me an additional $11.87 titled "International purchase transaction fee"

There was absolutely no information on the casino site that such fee was existent and neither was it indicated in any way that the purchase was not only international, but also qualified for a transaction fee on the bank's part (I'm sure not all international transactions incur a fee, right? Correct me if i'm wrong). Furthermore in the situation of such fee would be paid for by the client (me) instead of the merchant (casino).

I understand that US banks can't interact with online casinos but that doesn't mean I'm not going to frown at online casinos using fake company labels to bypass that. And especially when such action incurs a fee on the client's part. If they want do dance around the law don't make the customer pay the price. This may even qualify as a "Incorrect amount dispute" with the bank as I was expecting to pay $400 and actually paid $412. Don't panic casino managers, I'm not going to dispute, just saying it may be done.

$12 may not be a big number, but it's the principal that matters here. Think about it this way, if you don't think we have a problem here, would we have a problem if this was a $10000 deposit and the fee was $300? If still not, would we have a problem here if this was a $10000 deposit with a $10000 fee? The point of the matter is not only is this fee not mentioned anywhere, but it is applied retroactively to your permission. Meaning, I clicked "Confirm deposit of $400" not "Confirm deposit of $412". I gave permission to a $400 spending and not a $412 spending. How would you feel if those numbers were different? Once again in my opinion it's the principal that matters here.

Do you guys think I have the right to a refund on the $11.87? If enough people believe I do, I will take further actions. Messaging the casino rep, and if that doesn't work, PAB.

I will not disclose the name of the casino at this point (to not make a fool of myself if I'm wrong). But I will say that I have emailed customer support of the said casino and they denied me a refund saying "We have plenty of bonuses, it should make up for any situation like this". For the record their bonuses are quite stingy and most being -EV.
 
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That brush off from CS is poor, and also risky as it only enrages the player further. It's risky because the LAST thing the casino wants to do is drive the player into chasing the matter with their bank because the merchant has refused to address the matter.

The first action should be to "go over their heads" and contact the rep here. You should also find out EXACTLY where this fee was charged, by whom, and why. If international transactions do not usually cause this problem, then the fault would be with the casino due to the "funkified" way in which they process the payment. If you would normally expect a charge for an international transaction from your bank, then the fault lies with your bank. Normally, you would then have to take the matter up with the bank, but in this industry the casino should be seeking to avoid this by doing more than it is obliged to do in order to keep the matter "under the radar" for it's own interests.

Bonuses are NOT intended for making up for the player getting ripped off, they are an incentive for them to deposit at that specific casino rather than at a competitor, or not at all that day.

For the player, there is also a risk in that getting the bank involved might lead to them closing the bank account, and/or freezing it for investigation. This can be pretty inconvenient, so the wise player would do everything in their power to escalate the matter "beneath the radar", and contacting the rep is only the first step, not the last avenue of approach.

PAB would be the obvious second step, and if these both fail (some casinos refuse to cooperate with PAB), the casino can be named and the full story discussed here. There are then some other sites that can help in disputes, and some can help with casinos that refuse to cooperate with the PAB process here.

This is actually a common problem for US players, and can also be down to dodgy processors "skimming" a little from the transaction, which can then produce these unexpected extra charges for the player. Sometimes, choosing an alternative deposit method can get around the charges, but often they introduce charges of their own. Options are severely limited for US players, and the best are simply not available (Neteller, Skrill, etc).
 
The situation is pretty straightforward, and before I take further actions I'm asking the members of the forums for opinions so that I don't make a fool out of myself if I don't have the right to a refund.

I'm a US player. Recently I deposited $400 at a US-facing casino. The bank charged me an additional $11.87 titled "International purchase transaction fee"

There was absolutely no information on the casino site that such fee was existent and neither was it indicated in any way that the purchase was not only international, but also qualified for a transaction fee on the bank's part (I'm sure not all international transactions incur a fee, right? Correct me if i'm wrong). Furthermore in the situation of such fee would be paid for by the client (me) instead of the merchant (casino).

I understand that US banks can't interact with online casinos but that doesn't mean I'm not going to frown at online casinos using fake company labels to bypass that. And especially when such action incurs a fee on the client's part. If they want do dance around the law don't make the customer pay the price. This may even qualify as a "Incorrect amount dispute" with the bank as I was expecting to pay $400 and actually paid $412. Don't panic casino managers, I'm not going to dispute, just saying it may be done.

$12 may not be a big number, but it's the principal that matters here. Think about it this way, if you don't think we have a problem here, would we have a problem if this was a $10000 deposit and the fee was $300? If still not, would we have a problem here if this was a $10000 deposit with a $10000 fee? The point of the matter is not only is this fee not mentioned anywhere, but it is applied retroactively to your permission. Meaning, I clicked "Confirm deposit of $400" not "Confirm deposit of $412". I gave permission to a $400 spending and not a $412 spending. How would you feel if those numbers were different? Once again in my opinion it's the principal that matters here.

Do you guys think I have the right to a refund? If enough people believe I do, I will take further actions. Messaging the casino rep, and if that doesn't work, PAB.

I will not disclose the name of the casino at this point (to not make a fool of myself if I'm wrong). But I will say that I have emailed customer support of the said casino and they denied me a refund saying "We have plenty of bonuses, it should make up for any situation like this". For the record their bonuses are quite stingy and most being -EV.

the short of it [real short] if it's accredited casino here at C.M. and you realy want to play skip the fee thing and play & enjoy if you win 5x your rolll you will be a happy camper
 
Here's the rub:

1. US-facing casinos do not process transactions via processors in the US. Hence, all of these transactions are international. In fact, the same applies for many players from other countries too, depending on the casino.

2. Casinos have no control over, and are therefore not responsible for, bank-imposed fees of any kind. The reason they don't state any fees is because they cannot possibly be able to know who will or will not be charged and how much.

Sorry, but in this case you are not entitled to a refund from the casino.

The case might be different if the charge actually came from the casino or it's processor rather than the bank itself.


The first action should be to "go over their heads" and contact the rep here. You should also find out EXACTLY where this fee was charged, by whom, and why.

Sheesh Vinyl.

Why do you always have to make a drama out of everything?

The OP already SAID it was an international transaction fee charged by the BANK i.e. it came up seperately on the OPs statement as "International purchase transaction fee". If it was from the processor, it would just be an extra amount added to the purchase amount in ONE transaction and NOT be labelled at all.

It's got nothing to do with "skimming" or anything else. PABs, name and shame......FFS!

It is common for banks to charge a % of the purchase amount for foreign transactions and/or conversions. You very well know that, but there's no mileage in that is there.
 
There was absolutely no information on the casino site that such fee was existent and neither was it indicated in any way that the purchase was not only international, but also qualified for a transaction fee on the bank's part (I'm sure not all international transactions incur a fee, right? Correct me if i'm wrong).

You know that online gambling isn't exactly legal in USA, except New Jersey online gambling for people living in New Jersey, casino's location whether it was in Curacao, Costa Rica, Cyprus or Kahnawake, was probably clearly visible on the site, so of course you should have assumed it was international bank transaction. All international bank transactions incur fees, except within European Union banks are allowed to take only domestic fees for transactions within EU, and the domestic fees in many EU countries are zero.

If they want do dance around the law don't make the customer pay the price.
It takes two to tango ;)

Anyway, any new extra fee or cost applied to business gets always transferred to customer, one way or another.

$12 may not be a big number, but it's the principal that matters here. Think about it this way, if you don't think we have a problem here, would we have a problem if this was a $10000 deposit and the fee was $300? If still not, would we have a problem here if this was a $10000 deposit with a $10000 fee? The point of the matter is not only is this fee not mentioned anywhere, but it is applied retroactively to your permission. Meaning, I clicked "Confirm deposit of $400" not "Confirm deposit of $412". I gave permission to a $400 spending and not a $412 spending. How would you feel if those numbers were different? Once again in my opinion it's the principal that matters here.

The fees depend both on your bank and their bank, so casinos might not be able to tell that fee beforehand like with credit cards they tell of 2.5% fee on some casinos. The international bank transaction fees are mostly if not totally flat rate, so with larger transactions it gets relatively smaller, 1k fee for 10k deposit is not going to happen, casino does not decide to take it randomly. At least some American banks show the total fees before completing wire transfer, so if you were not shown anything, it could also be that your bank's online interface is not as good as for some other banks.

Bank Of America, FAQs: Wire Transfer
Are there fees and limits for domestic and international wire transfers?
Fees and limits may apply, depending on your account type and the type of wire. You will be able to review any fees and limits before completing your wire transfer in Online Banking.
 
I agree it's something you either accept - or just don't play online.

Even for me in the UK, I have a couple of casinos where I deposit using my Credit Card - and for each of my last £200 transactions I was charged a £5 "Cash Advance Fee" by my bank.
I just accept it and I certainly don't blame the casino for it.

KK
 
Banks love to charge fees. They do it the world over. I shop online and my bank charge fees for some of those transactions (international transactions, outside the EU). When I lived in the States every deposit I made into a casino was treated like an international transaction and I incurred a fee. If you have a problem with the fees I suggest you take it up with your bank.
 
Try Irish Banks,they charge me for everything!
Every POS transaction incurs a small fee,a cheque incurs a fee,basicly everything I do costs me a fee and every 3 months the bank sends me a fee notice and mostly it is always around €60.00 for transactions and such.
It is just unreal.
On top of that they charge a governement levy on your bankcards and whatever other fees.
Banking in Ireland is expensive and I am now thinking to go bank in my local Credit Union who have not such ridiculous fees.
Only problem is they do not have bankcards yet so I have to withdraw whatever I need from my wages and put it on a prepaid credit card.

But I completely agree with you OP.
Although as said it is not the casino but most likely your bank who have charged you. :cool:
 
A "US facing" casino doesn't mean the casino or the processor is in the US. If your bank calls it an international transaction then the transaction was obviously international and the bank (not the casino) is going to charge you extra for this.

You can't really ask the casino for a refund for money they didn't charge you and never received in the first place.

I wouldn't ask the bank for a refund either. I hate when people laugh at me.
 
I have seen alot of sites that do state you may be charged a fee, I can say I have nether been charge such a fee but I am in the U.K,
Also like KK said I have been charged a fee when using credit cards as these come up as a cash advance,
There have been on many of occasions the odd quid has been took of my balance when reg a card to sites, I no these are to make sure the card is legit and does not actually come out the bank just on hold, Why always a quid even low sites say no money will be taken, I have personally been caught out on this, for instance if you had 150 in bank and a phone bill is coming out for 50 and you put 100 in casino in reality 101 has came of your balance which now bank is seeing 49 and time comes to take your phone bill you have not enough in there as the quid was on hold and now you have a unpaid DD,
 
I'm not a US player, but I'm charged 3% (same as you) for deposits made at many casino sites, since their processors are not based in Canada by my prepaid card, even when playing in CAD.

If you haven't played the money, you could ask the rep to reverse the transaction. I honestly don't know if the fee would be refunded by your bank. I however assume you've already played, since this would be a matter of at least some days before it showed on your banking.

My advice would be if you've purchased other places that don't cause your bank to charge such a fee, to play there in future, or accept that this is how it is for deposits at this casino.

You could also shop around for a new bank, or maybe even a new bank plan at your existing bank. Call up a few banks and tell them you shop online at foreign merchants and ask about international fees.

I would definitely pm the rep and ask for some help... not to get a refund of a charge the casino has no control over, but to choose a deposit method that would not incur such fees, such as an ewallet or other funding solution.
 
The standard fee is 1% for all banks in the US. This isn't a fee the banks charge, as much as Visa / Mastercard charge it for there conversation to another currency fee.

Some banks eat this charge, and you'll never see it.

Other banks pass along this fee and only this fee alone. Then some other banks like to make some "extra" cash off of this fee, and charge anywhere from 0.5% more to up to 3% more making the fee 1.5% to 4% transaction fee. Which at that point is the bank trying to make a profit on your foreign transaction charges.

Whenever an international charge is processed, the banks almost will never refund the international fee. Mainly because they had to incur a cost to convert your money into an international currency. Even if you ask for a refund, because even then the refund has to reconverted back into US dollars.

Anytime you play online, foreign transaction fees are pretty common. The only time you might not incur a fee is if you play in the state of NJ, because they would be using a US based processor.

Otherwise the only other option as mentioned would be to shop for a bank that would eat the foreign transaction fee. Which if you find one let us all know so we can save the few pennies we spend to play online.
 
Some times I see an international transaction fee related to my deposit and some times I don't. The fact is, that it's MY responsibility to know what fees my bank charges for certain transactions not the casinos.

Just brush this off as a cost of doing bushiness in 2014.
 
when I played a couple years back, 2012 I was charged an ISA fee by my small bank but it was small, .20 cents on $25. I'm figuring that would be $3.20 on $400. $12 seems high if that's the same fee, but who know these days.

Unfortunately, there are no escaping fees, the land casino is at $4.50 for an atm withdrawal now and my bank grabs another $2.

My car insurance now charges $6 a month service charge if make I monthly payments, it used to be free, then it was $2, then $4 now its $6.
I always try and pay it off in full or at least extra to reduce the fees.

It goes on and on.
 
FTF are very common on credit cards, its like when you visit another country and use your card there, the merchant in the other country is not responible for your fees and neither should the casino IMHO
 
Thanks for your input guys. All fingers points towards the bank. They just have to be THAT greedy...

This really damages the player/house edge. I assume people who have it worse than I do is people who have a fixed bankroll for gambling and realize that they exceed it right away due to fees and start panicking and tilting.
 
Thanks for your input guys. All fingers points towards the bank. They just have to be THAT greedy...

This really damages the player/house edge. I assume people who have it worse than I do is people who have a fixed bankroll for gambling and realize that they exceed it right away due to fees and start panicking and tilting.

I wasn't going to reply but your post really bothered me.

1. Most players are aware if fees are involved in a gambling transaction and take this into account prior to depositing. Fees can take the form of banking fees, webwallet fees (fees to fund said wallet) and some casinos charge a small fee when depositing via cc.

2. Therefore there is no need to panic and tilt. I don't know where you would get that idea from.

3. Having a fixed bankroll for gambling is part of being a responsible gambler so frankly I find your post a tad condescending and insulting.

Cheers
 

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