Bot stuff from Spear's thread

[spearmaster]

If a casino can show me conclusive proof of a reverse-engineering attempt on their servers, I might change my tune.

But that's not even the casino's problem - that's the manufacturer's problem. I would dare to say that every claim of reverse-engineering made by a casino powered by an industry leading software in the past five years is utter nonsense.

To put it very simply - bots increase playthrough rate and reduce human error when possible. The net result is STILL a house win over the long run, *except* where the servers have been hacked and/or the software compromised by a present or past employee.

It is highly unlikely that the RNG generation method, or seed, AND the gaming algorithms that determine the returned result can be hacked - and even then, the major software manufacturers should be experienced enough to detect abnormal activity (such as an unlikely run of negative results, for example). Determining the RNG alone, or the gaming algorithms alone, cannot produce the desired result.

Wanna talk poker - I might agree with that as there is very little to discover other than the composition of the card deck. But we are talking casinos here.

edit -> damn you lawnet, you weren't supposed to post while I was posting Basically I agree with thelawnet.

[spearmaster]

By the way, I forgot to add that, to the best of my recollection, every instance where a "bot play" term was used by the casino involved the TIMING between plays. Not one that I can remember actually claimed reverse engineering.

Needless to say, banning someone based on intervals between plays is utter nonsense as well.

[Scooter7]

Hi guys, supper time in my corner of the world. I'll be back later to pick up where we left off.

Just for giggles, riddle me this: why _should_ bots be allowed? Aside from helping folks play faster or better than they normally would -- which I can't see are legit grounds for asking that they be allowed -- what other reasons are there?

The only reason (beyond laziness) for casino game bots (not poker) is to take advantage of multiple accounts for multiple bonuses that all have small +EV, but not enough to warrant sitting there and doing the work yourself

If one can earn just a few dollars per hour manually, it's not worth it. By using a bot and multiple accounts, that few dollars can be multiplied many times over without any personal time used up making it very lucrative.

Oops...you asked for LEGIT GROUNDS for bot use

[spearmaster]

Well, let's first link autoplay to bots. They are one and the same.

Then, we should note that Microgaming invented autoplay (if I'm not mistaken, certainly from an online perspective they were the first).

And lastly, many video slots in land-based casinos now offer autoplay. Yes, you can call it laziness if you like - but that's why 7-Eleven is successful, though they call that "convenience".

[liquuid_fusion]

In terms of making money there are no legit terms for bot use. But in terms of entertainment or legitimate "losing" play there might be. Maybe someone has bad eyesight or is disabled in some way but they still enjoy a game of blackjack? They could make use of a bot. I used to like playing video poker at MG using autoplay, it produced a crazy effect with cards flying everywhere at high speed. You can still sit there rooting for the royal flush, without worrying too much about holding the right cards etc. That's another use for a bot.

I'm sure there are many people who have crazy "systems" that they would like to set up with a bot. Obviously they will all lose in the long run, but that's another example where a bot could be used. Any casino should be quite happy with that kind of activity.

[WagerWitch]

OK...

Here's my question then:

WHY IS IT OK TO USE A BOT?

WHY ARE YOU USING A BOT?

That's the bottom line.

Are you gambling using a bot? NO.

Do you have ANY advantage over the average Joe player using a Bot? YES

Otherwise you wouldn't be using it.

Period, end of statement.

YOU WOULD NOT USE A BOT if it didn't give you an advantage.

This a TRUE or FALSE question - there is NO between answers of shades of gray.

Your average Joe Player doesn't use a bot.

True or False: A BOT player has an advantage over the average Joe Player.

True or False: The only reason you use a bot is to UP your play and up your pay.

True or False: The Average Joe Player - unless a streak of mad luck happens, will LOSE consistently against bot play.

This is why I refuse to play online poker games any more.

The people at the tables were using bots - and it made a significant difference.

I find it is cheating - period.

You have taken out human error and you have taken out of the equation simple things like timing and exhaustion, etc.

You have taken BEING HUMAN out of the Gambling Game.

And I think that gives the rest of the players a disadvantage as they continue to play IN THE SPIRIT of Gambling.

This is my opinion only - and it is alright if you disagree with me.

It's the same conversation you might have with people who discuss religion - or politics - to each his own belief and opinion.

[WagerWitch]

Uhm --- I dunno about you - but I don't trust the casino AUTOPLAY.

I really don't like autoplay at all.

However - IF the casino software provides the AUTOPLAY - then it is available to EVERY single player - Joe New Guy or Joe Old Guy.

It's not a separate - to beat the edge BOT.

[WagerWitch]

And you guys are using the term BOT to cover CLICKING for you.

ME - I call using a BOT - one that has all your possible card counting - all your possible advantages - one that learns what you are playing and has figured it out for you.

A bot plays the best hand possible - and calls or folds based on the possible win loss scenario - whereas a human would possibly take a hand and continue on - based on feelings or based on luck - etc.

A bot never would.

Yes - there are pat hands that most gamblers know they should fold on - or etc. But some players would continue on - seeing other people's hands or on a "HUNCH" - etc.

A bot never would.

An a BOT is NOT gambling.

Gambling is an ACTIVE PARTICIPATION GAMING OF SKILL

Using a BOT takes that all away.

It means you want to make money - plain and simple - in the easiest way you can.

I guess, that's just the way I kinda feel about it - I don't use them - don't like them... Someone showed me one once and it literally beat the pants off all the players at the table - and I FELT ICKY... I mean really icky - like I had just done something VERY wrong.

It made me realize that all those times I thought I was playing someone else in a friendly game of online poker --- they were using something that could think faster - add faster and use percentages faster than the timer could start to count down - whereas a human would have to think or possibly time out... And it made me realize that it was SLIMY...

They weren't using the bot because their eyes were bad... they weren't using the bot to just play for them so they could clean their house once in awhile during a 9 hour run...

They were using the bot to make money off the other people in the fastest way possible..

And that's how I felt about it...

So - if you can tell me that --- this kind of bot usage - is OK Dokie... and just fine...

Then - I think maybe we've lost Gambling to people who stopped loving the game and just see it as a way to make money... And they will use whatever advantage that they can.

[deltoid]

wagerwitch prove me to that in your last session you didn't use a bot.

You can't (and yes, this is assuming you had full access to all of your betting logs). Each and every bet cannot be determined to be made by you OR a bot. The timing *does not matter* as a bot can be programmed to play at the same rate as a human.

As such, as a casino, I should be what, allowed to void your winnings because you can't prove you were not using a bot? Come on.

[thelawnet]

OK...

Here's my question then:

WHY IS IT OK TO USE A BOT?

WHY ARE YOU USING A BOT?

That's the bottom line.

Are you gambling using a bot? NO.

Of course you are.

Otherwise the result would be pre-determined. As already noted, Microgaming's autoplay is a bot. No different. If you autoplay blackjack at $500 I guarantee you will find that a gamble!

Your average Joe Player doesn't use a bot.

Many casinos would beg to differ, because they've added them to their software. Cryptologic has autoplay blackjack. Playtech has autoplay in some of their games. So does Boss. Microgaming have it on almost everything. I don't play RTG so I don't know about them.