How can results be predetermined and yet

[BigJock]

random? I've seen my balance increase several times before the wheels stop or card is flipped.

[Westland Bowl]

That is certainly a topic of many postings though such hasn't been discussed for quite a while here on this forum. And it certainly is the Wizard of Odds website whole premise.

The main game I play is blackjack. Given certain rules, such as doubling allowed after split, hit on soft 17, etc., you can mathematically calculate what the casinio's winning percentage should be in the long run as well as the bettor's winning percentage. Land casinos do not concern themselves with whether they are adhering to the math because the cards are (supposedly) shuffled professionally to ensure randomness then put into the shoe, all the while you are watching so you know the cards are not being manipulated therefore the outcome, win or loss, is not manipulated. Of course, we are not talking about the casino doing card-trick cheating.

Online casinos are a bit different story. The cards are not real but are computer generated by that online casino's computers therefore you don't see the computer version of the shuffle and have no way of knowing if the cards coming out is dependent upon the cards already drawn. Online casinos have to keep an eye on the game's mathematically correct percentages to ensure they can be accredited as fair and therefore random and therefore get more bettors to play with them.

Suppose I start out at a new casino doing really well because despite the game's mathematically-calculated bettor winning percentage of 43.3%, I had 5 sessions of 48% to 50%. It won't be long before the casino's computer is going to start doling out a series of low percentage sessions, possibly one or two being waaaay low below 25%. You'll begin to question whether these games are fair. Well, yes and no. Yes, they are fair in that it is bringing the "long run" percentage back into conformity with the games math-derived percentage. No, because the cards are being manipulated in order to be fair.

At a new casino, I usually end up flat-betting the first game or two because the sessions are usually very low winning ones. It appears they try to "git-cha" right at the beginning. However, if the sessions continue to be low winning percentage ones, bettors start complaining that the casino isn't being fair in comparison to the math-derived winning percentage the game's rules indicate they should be. That isn't good for an online casino so they certainly would be wise to promptly swing a few sessions in the bettor's favor to bring back balance. I keep track of the "flow" of my winning and losing sessions in comparison to the math-derived percentages and adjust my betting in response.

So what is the slot or craps version of the above? Well, I don't know but I hope the above gave a little bit of insight to the whole question.

[james01]

random? I've seen my balance increase several times before the wheels stop or card is flipped.

Even if it's running a 100% honest random number generator, the number isn't generated by the graphics. The graphics are generated by the numbers. In other words, the computer knows the numbers that were chosen before it shows them to you. It just spins the reels or flips the cards to make you feel like you're playing a casino game.

[refre]

random? I've seen my balance increase several times before the wheels stop or card is flipped.

Predetermined doesn't necessarily mean non-random. In a slot the results are in as soon as you hit spin; the software/server knows if you won/lost immediately. Of course it's a glitch in the software if you get credited with the win before the reels stop spinning, but it doesn't mean its not random.

If you are referring to the double up feature in VP, the results are predetermined, at least in MG casinos. You get to choose between a set of cards, but it's all "eye-candy" as the server already picked a (random) card for you as soon as you hit Double Up. Let's say you get a ten and "the dealer" has a jack. Don't beat yourself up over choosing the wrong card; you would have gotten that ten no matter what.

Suppose I start out at a new casino doing really well because despite the game's mathematically-calculated bettor winning percentage of 43.3%, I had 5 sessions of 48% to 50%. It won't be long before the casino's computer is going to start doling out a series of low percentage sessions, possibly one or two being waaaay low below 25%. You'll begin to question whether these games are fair. Well, yes and no. Yes, they are fair in that it is bringing the "long run" percentage back into conformity with the games math-derived percentage. No, because the cards are being manipulated in order to be fair.

What casino software are you referring to here?
The casino doesn't need to manipulate the cards in order for the results to be fair. With random cards the winning/losing/push percentages will stabilize in the long run. That said, I have had the feeling, at least with Microgaming, that slots make up for bad runs, giving you a big win after a losing streak (and vice versa )

Freddy

[Jasminebed]

Losers post more complaints than winners. Winners justifiably complain when they do not get paid. The house has an edge, and we should expect that. We should expect that they only have the statistical edge that a "random" occurrance entitles them to, and not some "cheating" version. The casino will win in the long run. Casinos should be able to be reputable and still make money. I expect to lose more often than I win, but I do not expect to be cheated.

Random is relative. If the sequence for slots is "pseudo" random based on a computer algorhythm, and it is based on my mouse click, and internet traffic and might loop after 5 billion trials, and not all of them appear on my desktop, random enough for me to gamble.

Denying winnings based on complicated terms & such, and outright roguish behaviour is something else.

Very glad I found Casinomeister. We are gambling consumers, and consumer protection and the sharing of knowlege/beefs is valuable to me.

[GGW Laurie]

Losers post more complaints than winners. Winners justifiably complain when they do not get paid. The house has an edge, and we should expect that. We should expect that they only have the statistical edge that a "random" occurrance entitles them to, and not some "cheating" version. The casino will win in the long run. Casinos should be able to be reputable and still make money. I expect to lose more often than I win, but I do not expect to be cheated.
Random is relative. If the sequence for slots is "pseudo" random based on a computer algorhythm, and it is based on my mouse click, and internet traffic and might loop after 5 billion trials, and not all of them appear on my desktop, random enough for me to gamble.

Denying winnings based on complicated terms & such, and outright roguish behaviour is something else.

Very glad I found Casinomeister. We are gambling consumers, and consumer protection and the sharing of knowlege/beefs is valuable to me.

...............agree 100%