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Thread: Are Bet365 cheating on their game(s)?

  1. #31
    maphesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simmo! View Post
    Actually I was thinking of the TopGame analogy where their symbols were missing on reels. We (as in the collective here) laid the blame squarely with the software manufacturer and not each individual casino who licenced their game.
    At this time, every single Top Game casino was connected to each other. Many of them used the phone number to Winward and they shared support and when you deposited it said Rich Casino on the receipt even if you deposited at Thebes or Rome. It was obviously no reason to blame any single casino when every sane person realized that Top Game "owned them all". If I remember correct I think that Black Diamond started their first Top Game session only a couple of weeks after the missing symbol "accident".

    Bet365 are big and they have to check their games, it´s their responsibility. They have probably picked these games one by one and it would be interesting to know what info they have about this game. RTP 80%?


    Quote Originally Posted by Simmo! View Post
    I'm not math-head and I do think the rules of the game should be clearer fwiw but my first assumption was that there were more than 6 cards (let's say 52 for example purposes) in the pack with maybe 10 x 9's, 8 x 10's, 6 x Jacks ... etc ... 1 Ace: then that would set the outcome "fairly" would it not? Arguably the "unfairly" bit is the fact the player isn't told this but then you could further this argument in that no online slot game manufacturer publishes the reel layouts - so does that mean there is just one of each symbol on a reel, because all we see is an animation of them spinning?

    So my argument: if they say there is 6 cards in a pack then clearly it is "cheating". If they don't say how many cards there are in a pack or how they are divided then that is a lack of information that may or may not - depending on your perspective - be seen as misleading. But that takes us back to the "symbols on a reel argument".
    NEVER compare card games with slot machines! It´s not seen as cheating if you have a twisted reel layout, but a weighted deck is definately cheating!

    I know that you promote Bet365, they are a good casino. Still, this game is a cheating one.



  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by maphesto View Post
    At this time, every single Top Game casino was connected to each other. Many of them used the phone number to Winward and they shared support and when you deposited it said Rich Casino on the receipt even if you deposited at Thebes or Rome. It was obviously no reason to blame any single casino when every sane person realized that Top Game "owned them all". If I remember correct I think that Black Diamond started their first Top Game session only a couple of weeks after the missing symbol "accident".

    Bet365 are big and they have to check their games, it´s their responsibility. They have probably picked these games one by one and it would be interesting to know what info they have about this game. RTP 80%?




    NEVER compare card games with slot machines! It´s not seen as cheating if you have a twisted reel layout, but a weighted deck is definately cheating!

    I know that you promote Bet365, they are a good casino. Still, this game is a cheating one.
    Maphesto...surely you know that Rome and TopGame are not not at all related....Noah told us so. Are you meaning to say he was being economical with the truth? Maybe he WAS using the same IP as the TopGame rep but that only proves they were at the same computer. Nothing else. Geez give them a break! (I'm being sarcastic btw )

    I don't think Simmo! was giving an opinion with any commercial bias whatsoever. It was probably a bit unnecessary to mention that he promotes them, given that we are a long way from determining any deliberate cheating on the part of Bet365. Just saying.



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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifty29 View Post
    It was probably a bit unnecessary to mention that he promotes them, given that we are a long way from determining any deliberate cheating on the part of Bet365. Just saying.
    Maybe you are right! It wasn´t necessary, but I said they were good. Haven´t played Playtech for a while, but last time I did was at Bet365.



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  6. #34
    Eliot Jacobson is offline Mathmeister
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    Greetings,

    I will look into this and see what I can find out.
    Visit my new blog:
    www.apheat.net



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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot Jacobson View Post
    Greetings,

    I will look into this and see what I can find out.
    Oh dear! I wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now

    Surely the first step is to calculate the natural RTP from the rules given. The screenshot shows clearly that this is a multi-hand video poker game, albeit a rather unusual one. As such, every card present in the deck should have an equal probability of being drawn. This does not have to be stipulated in the rules, it is a fair assumption, just as we assume the sun will rise tomorrow morning.

    Even for a slot with a "twisted" reel layout, each reel position has an equal chance of being on the "stop" after each spin.

    The content of the deck is crucial. This is not a standard deck, and somewhere it's content should be specified. So far, it seems to be nothing more than a "short" deck, with all cards below a certain value removed. There are casino table games using such decks, and what is left is expected to be randomly dealt, and in the quantities expected from a "short" deck. If three such decks are combined to make the playing deck, it would STILL have equal quantities of each number, such as 12 Aces, 12 Kings, etc, 4 from each of the 3 decks used.


    To pay 100x for AAA, it would have to pay far lower for 999 than the natural odds.

    If it is cheating by weighting certain cards, it is not even a "twisted" slot, it is a "rigged game", and should NOT be promoted as "random" as it is in the marketing copy from the software supplier. A game of this type is considered to be "cheating" unless the weighted nature of the results is made perfectly clear in the rules.

    Bet365 didn't code the game, but they should have tested it before it was given the "good to go" for their customers.
    Trust me, I'm a weatherman.



  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by maphesto View Post
    NEVER compare card games with slot machines! It´s not seen as cheating if you have a twisted reel layout, but a weighted deck is definately cheating!
    It's a fair point that Bet365 list this game under "Table Games" when it's obviously not. But it is also blatantly obvious that the odds of this game - if you assume it is a 6 card deck - would be so weighted in the players favour it would be ridiculous to even offer it.

    If they say it has 6 cards in a deck then I'd agree with the description of it's cheating, although whether it's "deliberate cheating by Bet365" I choose to disagree. Semantics. And irrelevant anyway because I recommend them on my websites so I would say that wouldn't I But if they don't say a deck is 6 cards then I say it's "misleading".

    Until we know all the answers, whether you say it's Bet365 or GTech, and whether you say it's misleading or cheating depends on how an individual wants to interpret it I guess.




  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simmo! View Post
    It's a fair point that Bet365 list this game under "Table Games" when it's obviously not. But it is also blatantly obvious that the odds of this game - if you assume it is a 6 card deck - would be so weighted in the players favour it would be ridiculous to even offer it.

    If they say it has 6 cards in a deck then I'd agree with the description of it's cheating, although whether it's "deliberate cheating by Bet365" I choose to disagree. Semantics. And irrelevant anyway because I recommend them on my websites so I would say that wouldn't I But if they don't say a deck is 6 cards then I say it's "misleading".

    Until we know all the answers, whether you say it's Bet365 or GTech, and whether you say it's misleading or cheating depends on how an individual wants to interpret it I guess.
    It's presented as a Video Poker machine, so I would expect it to behave like one, and work from a virtual deck of cards.

    If a slot had a "deck" of 100 symbols for each reel, we would STILL expect each of those symbols to have an equal probability of being "dealt" in each spin; else it would be a "rigged slot".

    What about the BLR Tech craps game? It was presented as a dice game, yet used weighting to hold it to an RTP much lower that would be expected under the rules or paytable. There was no debate, once proven to be "rigged", it was straight into the rogue pit for BLR, and also any casino that insisted on continuing to offer the game in it's "rigged" form.

    Bet365 and "Boss Media (now renamed)" shouldn't think they are going to get off lightly if these claims are found to be true. At best, this will be a massive embarrassment for them, and they had better start offering their PR teams some overtime.
    Trust me, I'm a weatherman.



  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinylweatherman View Post
    If a slot had a "deck" of 100 symbols for each reel, we would STILL expect each of those symbols to have an equal probability of being "dealt" in each spin; else it would be a "rigged slot".
    I'm not suggesting otherwise. But I am suggesting there may be less of certain high paying symbols than of certain low paying symbols.




  12. #39
    zap987 is offline Meister Member
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    It's really down to how the game presents the results, if it had been slot reels, even if those reels had pictures of the cards, noone would have cared if the chances were different for the symbols but when it's presented in the way of cards it is a natural assumption that the cards have equal probability.

    If we assume the game instead of cards used 6 sided dice, it would have been exactly the same game, wouldn't everyone think each number had the same chance?



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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simmo! View Post
    I'm not suggesting otherwise. But I am suggesting there may be less of certain high paying symbols than of certain low paying symbols.

    A reasonable assumption for a slot, but NOT for a card game. If I am playing a card game, I expect each deck to have 4 cards of each value, one for each suit. For 3 decks, this would be 12 cards per value, 3 for each suit. Where the 3 decks are shortened so as to only have the cards 9 and above, I STILL expect there to be 12 of each in a shoe made from 3 such decks, and that each deal from such a shoe would be "natural".

    This game is not promoted as a slot, but as a "table" game, therefore it should behave like one, just as the BLR craps game was expected to behave like one.
    Trust me, I'm a weatherman.



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