Why do loyalty points expire?

skiny

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I've been considering dumping my 32Red account but I figured I'd check and see if I earned any usable loyalty points. I've claimed loyalty points at lots of casinos over the last few months.

But at 32Red they never accumulate. So I ask why.

To claim them you have to wager 10 thousand dollars and any points earned over 90 days ago expire. So I have to wager at least 10 thousand dollars in a 90 day period to claim loyalty points.

I guess if they sit in your account too long they go bad. All the loyalty points earned in August have spoiled and they had to be thrown out. Now they're all sitting in a loyalty point compost pile somewhere behind the casino.

Now, I'm not saying 10 thousand dollars in wagers in a three month span is a ridiculously huge amount provided you get some good game play, withdrawals or not. When you rarely get to wager much more than you deposit 10 thousand dollars in a 3 month span starts getting a little steep.

People also like to play at more than one casino. Sometimes I'm in the mood for the Marvel games Playtech offer. Maybe I want to play RTG once in a while. Maybe that makes me a little less loyal than other players that play this one casino exclusively. So maybe it takes me a little longer to accumulate 10 thousand dollars worth of comp points. But if it takes more than 3 months they're never worth a penny because they can never be claimed.

At Bet365 and 3Dice you can claim them any time you want. Even if you earn a dollar you can take it. What difference does it make? You earned it and you're probably not going to get far starting with a dollar anyway. At Bodog they just dump whatever you earned every two weeks into your account. Last time I think it was almost 15 bucks. I don't even deposit much there but I did get lots of good play time for my money.

Yes, I was told it's all in the terms and conditions. And yes, I probably did read them about 10 years ago. I just didn't know they were expiring faster than I was earning them.

Just as well, I guess. The last thing we need is old loyalty points stinking up the place.
 
I agree they don't seem to accumulate as much some places. And I don't really see why they need to expire. But if you're close you can ask a rep to have them topped off, or ask for a comp for a couple crappy sessions.
 
Strange. I thought it was 6 month, but maybe they've changed.
I also thought that they only expired if I didn't play at all in that time.

I know when I started playing at Nedplay I didn't even know that there was loyaltypoints there, so when I found some strange $60 I should have earned I asked what it was:oops:
They told me they had expired but were nice and gave it to me anyway.

So I believe you at least can see how much you have lost, that have expired.
These days I know so I take them out as soon as I run out of money.
 
Well, the comp system at 32Red has always been the same AFAIK.

It's pretty standard right across MGS software.

Comp points are really just another form of bonus and are often credited as real money. Like bonuses, they have to be accounted for in the backend and financial systems....much like gift vouchers which almost always have an expiry date. It's common practice for bonuses to have a time limit, so it's not surprising that comp points do too.

There are exceptions as stated that allow you to cash them at a $1 minimum, but most have $10 or $5. I'm not sure if 3Dice points expire, so can't speak to that one. The reason they may not at places like 3Dice is perhaps because they don't offer generous match bonuses regularly, whereas MGS casinos generally do.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. 32Red will sometimes top up your points (so I'm told), so maybe it's worth asking next time. I see comps as a kind of post-wager bonus I.e. every time I wager $3333 on slots (for me anyway) I get $10, much like the PW bonus in that the cash is not actually "mine" until I complete the wagering. It's the deal I signed up for, so I accept it.

If cashing of comps in $1 increments is your preference, then maybe 32Red isn't for you. I can't see how they're doing anything wrong, or "confiscating" player's cash if you will. It's normal and legitimate business practice all over the world in many different industries.
 
Well, the comp system at 32Red has always been the same AFAIK.

It's pretty standard right across MGS software.

Comp points are really just another form of bonus and are often credited as real money. Like bonuses, they have to be accounted for in the backend and financial systems....much like gift vouchers which almost always have an expiry date. It's common practice for bonuses to have a time limit, so it's not surprising that comp points do too.

There are exceptions as stated that allow you to cash them at a $1 minimum, but most have $10 or $5. I'm not sure if 3Dice points expire, so can't speak to that one. The reason they may not at places like 3Dice is perhaps because they don't offer generous match bonuses regularly, whereas MGS casinos generally do.

Personally, I don't see the big deal. 32Red will sometimes top up your points (so I'm told), so maybe it's worth asking next time. I see comps as a kind of post-wager bonus I.e. every time I wager $3333 on slots (for me anyway) I get $10, much like the PW bonus in that the cash is not actually "mine" until I complete the wagering. It's the deal I signed up for, so I accept it.

If cashing of comps in $1 increments is your preference, then maybe 32Red isn't for you. I can't see how they're doing anything wrong, or "confiscating" player's cash if you will. It's normal and legitimate business practice all over the world in many different industries.

If it's a bonus, it's awarded for having a fairly high RTP. If you enjoy lots of play time for your deposits your comp or "loyalty" points will accumulate quickly. If your RTP is low they wont. Theoretically, a person could have made half as many deposits and have 10 times as many "loyalty" points. Even if neither of their balances ever exceeded their deposits.

I have never really considered comp points "loyalty" points per se because they can be earned faster by people who are less loyal.

I just don't see the need for them to expire even if it is a policy all MG casinos follow. All you need is for 1 out of 3 months to be crap and you never accumulate enough to claim them.
 
There are exceptions as stated that allow you to cash them at a $1 minimum, but most have $10 or $5. I'm not sure if 3Dice points expire, so can't speak to that one. The reason they may not at places like 3Dice is perhaps because they don't offer generous match bonuses regularly, whereas MGS casinos generally do.

Just on this point, they actually do send out some pretty decent match bonuses, in my cashier at the moment I have a 100% bonus up to $60 with only 5x wr (where can you get 5x these days) this is the 3rd one for the month already. Of course though the amount you get and wr is based on your loyalty but even at a lower tier they are still pretty good at least on the wr front anyway.

Also as far as I know 3Dice loyalty points do not expire or its set to a very long time as I remember having $1 for ages when I was not depositing much.

I don't believe loyalty points should expire and I think 32Red is the only place I currently play at were they do, although I have usually used them before they expire but if you earn them you earn them all the same. I don't think its about at what increment you can claim them but more about whether they should be taken away from a player.

I also usually don't play at places that don't offer loyalty points either, atm GUTS is the exception but hopefully theirs is implemented soon.
 
Comp points are really just another form of bonus and are often credited as real money. Like bonuses, they have to be accounted for in the backend and financial systems....much like gift vouchers which almost always have an expiry date. It's common practice for bonuses to have a time limit, so it's not surprising that comp points do too.

That's my first thought too. My best guess would be that it's an accounting thing - eg: to account for players that have accumulated a small handful of points and then never return. Otherwise you'd end up having a bunch of funds allocated that are essentially trapped on the balance sheet.

But 90 days seems a bit low for this tbh...
 
I think 3Dice has the lowest WR on bonuses. Specially if you have a high loyalty status.

I could understand if you didn't earn any loyalty points in a 3 month span. It's the not wagering enough that kind of bugged me. Whether it's 20 dollars a month or 20 thousand, most people do gamble on a budget. I can also understand that people who are able to gamble more often or place higher bets are going to get better perks. This is the case at any casino.

But when casinos set a minimum 10 thousand dollars every 3 months or your loyalty points become void they're not just giving better perks to people who can achieve this while playing within their means but they're punishing people who can't. Casinos shouldn't have consequences for not gambling enough.

Playing within your means doesn't make you less loyal. It makes you more responsible.
 
Hi Guys,

I can confirm there is a 90 day expiry on loyalty points earned at 32Red, as someone suggested, this is more of an accountancy thing rather than anything else, to avoid huge loyalty points hanging around in the system in dormant accounts, I say dormant as Tirilej hit the nail on the head...

I also thought that they only expired if I didn't play at all in that time.

That's correct, the points expire after 90 days of inactivity. This can be seen in the t&c on site:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


@ the OP - the points currently in your balance expire on 10th Feb 2014. This will increase by 90 days the next time you play.

I hope that clears things up.

Thanks
Mark
 
I asked support "So if I don't wager 10 thousand dollars every 90 days I lose my loyalty points?"

I was told "You lose the points that were earned before the 90 days and so part of the balance can expire"

So you're saying part of the balance can't expire because the 90 days is reset?

I guess the loyalty points aren't expiring.

They're just accumulating 10 times slower than everywhere else.
 
Hi Guys,

I can confirm there is a 90 day expiry on loyalty points earned at 32Red, as someone suggested, this is more of an accountancy thing rather than anything else, to avoid huge loyalty points hanging around in the system in dormant accounts, I say dormant as Tirilej hit the nail on the head...



That's correct, the points expire after 90 days of inactivity. This can be seen in the t&c on site:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


@ the OP - the points currently in your balance expire on 10th Feb 2014. This will increase by 90 days the next time you play.

I hope that clears things up.

Thanks
Mark

Does it have to be 90 days, rather than 180, 360 or 18 months, the same as for remaining cash balances in dormant accounts?

It can be a confusing concept, as merely by redeeming the points on day 89, they change status and come under the rules for cash balances in dormant accounts.

In this case, a single bet will reset the 90 days, but like those pay as you go phones that are used only for emergency, the problem is remembering to place that bet or call in time.

Maybe some players just don't know they have these points knocking around when they play their last deposit before deciding to try their luck elsewhere. They may just be taking a break, and 90 days isn't all that long for a given casino when a player is active at many venues.

In many cases, it's going to be a fuss over as little as £10 or €10, so any bad feeling will be disproportionate to the saving to 32Red of voiding the points.

This 90 day expiry seems to be a setting provided by Microgaming, since many casinos use it. Some are worse, voiding points a month or two after they were earned, no matter how active the player is on the account.

I am in no danger as I play at 32Red almost every day. The Dish of the Day makes sure of it;) If I don't log in, I am not at home, or my internet is down. Even then, I have a decent laptop for my "away" play (thanks to Game On @ Lucky Nugget casino).


BTW Mark, tell Pat I did it again, at GNUF this time, emptied their Treasure Ireland fruitie for almost as much as yours back in 2006:p
 
We don't expire loyalty points, but there are few very careful calculations going on here from a casino's perspective that I might be able to shed some light on.

1. Casinos want to minimize the drop-off rate.
It's hard to get a play-cash player to deposit the first time. And when a player deposits once, you want them to be happy with the service and come back (whether they win or lose). Obviously loyalty points are a way to get a player to stick with your casino instead of moving on in the short- and mid-term. But there's also another force at work, that amounts to what I call player fatigue. Even players who win over the lifetime of their account will eventually go to other casinos looking for games you don't have. The ones who eventually take a loss will look for greener pastures.

By the best estimates I've been able to get from my own casino and from industry documents, most casinos average a 50%-75% dropoff of active players per month. Consider that only about 10-15% of site visitors actually sign up for an account on a successful site, and only 10-15% of those actually deposit real money; so figure about 1% of your visitors deposit if you're extremely lucky. If you take the conservative 50% drop-off figure, that means if your site had 20,000 unique (new) visitors in a month, 200 of them would deposit. Of those, only 100 would still be active the next month, and only 50 would be active two months after that. Three months later, only 25 would be active. So you can see why it's important to a casino for you to come back within that 3-month window. After that, the general assumption is that they've lost you.

2. Player points are a lien against the house's quarterly earnings.
I don't know how other casinos calculate this, but for us, on the quarterly report to investors, we have four major things we use to deduct from our projection of the next quarter's earnings: a) additional float we need to accumulate/hold against the next quarter, based on the number of players we have, how many we expect, total deposits in the system, and expected deposits, b) all the progressive jackpots we have riding, c) the total current player deposits minus the previous quarter's house edge (e.g. if we have $20k sitting in player accounts and our overall RTP was 97% last quarter, we project earning 3% of that $20k plus whatever we expect to come in new deposits, and consider the rest to be "future withdrawn" -- meanwhile we have to account for holding that sitting balance in a place where we pay for it to be "live" and quickly paid out; we don't earn interest on it, actually we pay for the service) and d) awards currently available based on player loyalty points.

Since we never devalue player loyalty points, those just accumulate and become a bigger and bigger drag on our future bottom line. At a certain point, we stopped counting the ones for players who hadn't shown up in over a year.

3. The meaning of player points tends to shift.
About a year ago we started a program that gives cashback bonuses based on loyalty points (for times when players lose their whole deposit within a week) that go from 1% to 18% of losses, depending on how many points players rack up and how much playthrough they had since their last deposit. Points are not actually spent this way... players keep their points when they take the bonus. At 1 million points, (25¢ bet equals one point), people hit the 18% cashback level and max out. This is great for players who joined early and remain loyal. It effectively lowers the house edge to less than 1% for them. Unfortunately, it is not as much of an incentive to new players as we had hoped. It takes a lot of play to get to that level. So what we've seen is a split between a few high rollers with over a million points, and a lot of people who never rack up more than a few thousand.

In and of itself that wouldn't be a huge problem, until we start calculating how many player points someone should have to spend to buy into a freeroll poker tournament or, if we want to run a promotion, how many points they should need to win an ipad or something. We can't give away 1000 ipads to one guy who hasn't played for a year, when most of our players can't even afford one with their points. So, player points tend to inflate -- and I'd say this has more to do with income inequality in the world in general, and gets worse the more broad your player base is demographically -- and so it makes some sense and is even somewhat more egalitarian to remove excess from the system, especially for players who aren't actively playing anymore, who would benefit at the expense of active players with a smaller bankroll.

4. One bet is never one bet.
This is kind of obvious, but the point is, there's no reason for a casino to be harsh about taking away your loyalty points. If you come in every three months and make one bet to keep those points, you're probably going to make more than one bet. At the very least, the casino's reminded you they exist, and why you liked to play there, and how many points you have stored up (instead of having to send you emails begging you to come back). So a good loyalty program promotes itself with good carrots, but can keep a stick in reserve.

5. Loyalty points are just that.
Let's face it. People who don't come back for three months aren't loyal players. If you stop paying for your AMEX black card, you don't get to keep your benefits. Unlike AMEX, casinos don't charge you to be part of a loyalty program, and they don't have any chance of making money if you don't play. It costs a lot of money to keep a casino in operation, and that money comes from the house edge. As a player, when you go into a casino, your first thought is "they're making X% off everybody that walks through that door". That's true. But they're giving you a night out, freebies, entertainment and a chance at winning. If no one plays -- if no money moves through the system, if no one walks through the door -- the casino has to pay a price to continue holding their deposits, just to stay in business. We have to pay our employees and our banks and our payment processors and server providers either way. We take what amounts to a small cut of every bet, but if no one bets, we make nothing. And we take risks in that process -- and deal with regulatory burdens -- well above and beyond the risks shouldered by normal businesses that give out loyalty points, like bakeries and coffee shops, even airlines and credit card companies.

So as a player, it does seem a little harsh for a casino to take away your points when you haven't shown up for awhile -- be that 3 months or whatever point the casino thinks it's necessary for their bottom line. But realistically, casinos cost money to run; loyalty points are for loyalty; we have an obligation to our investors to take a small percentage out of the transit / influx / outflow of money that it costs us to handle; and we provide a service (or a chance, at least) that in itself is not easy to provide, let alone when you're giving away free stuff. You want to reserve that free stuff for your most completely loyal players, the ones who say good things about you online, who send their friends, and who turn your way first -- win or lose -- when they want to play.
 
So as a player, it does seem a little harsh for a casino to take away your points when you haven't shown up for awhile -- be that 3 months or whatever point the casino thinks it's necessary for their bottom line. But realistically, casinos cost money to run; loyalty points are for loyalty; we have an obligation to our investors to take a small percentage out of the transit / influx / outflow of money that it costs us to handle; and we provide a service (or a chance, at least) that in itself is not easy to provide, let alone when you're giving away free stuff. You want to reserve that free stuff for your most completely loyal players, the ones who say good things about you online, who send their friends, and who turn your way first -- win or lose -- when they want to play.

In the end the deciding factor in a player's loyalty will always be how fast they go broke every time they make a deposit. Some people might hang around a little longer than they should when they're continuously losing too fast to get any entertainment value out of their deposits but in the end nobody is going to pay for nothing forever.

These points which I don't even like calling "loyalty" points because they're earned as a percentage of your wagers which is usually going to be a direct result of how much you win rather than how much or how often you deposit. You could literally deposit and lose for years waiting to reach the required amount of points to claim them and if the speed at which you're losing your deposits becomes too much and you take a few months off, everything you've accumulated will be gone. In the meantime anyone who shows up and gets lucky for a few nights could easily rack up enough points to claim "loyalty" and then be gone again just as fast.

It's a system that rewards people who are already winning and returns nothing to the players who are losing as fast as they can deposit. And if you break the cycle of dumping deposits and earning a minimal amount of "loyalty" points the casino removes what little you have earned because you didn't come back and lose often enough.

Players who continue to wager when they're enjoying a high RTP are not the loyal ones. The people who continue to dump deposit after deposit without an ounce of play time are the ones the casino should be looking after. Those players don't hang around forever.

And if you really want to piss them off, wait until they take a break because they're tired of making deposits and a coffee and the coffee lasting longer and remove the few points they did manage to earn before they come back. You think 3 months is a long time for a player to stay away? Try losing as fast as you can deposit for a solid year and see how long it takes for the sting to wear off when you finally do decide to give up.

Personally, I get tired of seeing the word "loyalty" in big red capital letters over a number that never moves no matter how often I deposit. If that's how a casino measures loyalty, they've found a definition for it that I've yet to discover.

Now, how long it takes a casino to knock that number back down to zero... That's a pretty good indication of loyalty.
 

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