Bonus Complaint Harrycasino voided my winnings

[Digi]

Hello everyone,

Last month on the 28th of October I made a deposit at harrycasino and received a 50% reload bonus and played. When I tried to log in couple of days later it said "account blocked" and contacted support and they told me that my account cannot be re-open because I broke terms.

I was very surprised by this, I have been playing every month with harrycasino for almost a year and now suddenly I broke a some terms?? I asked what terms did I broke and they said that I broke this rule:

"You are not permitted to place bets of 25% or more of your total balance via a single game round, when completing wagering towards a bonus. Players deemed to be adopting such a strategy could potentially be excluded from receiving bonuses in the future."

Well normally I read the bonus rules every time I was offered a bonus but this time I didn't... This was a new bonus rule they added not long ago because 2 weeks or so before I played at harrycasino and didn't saw that rule.

They then said they would give me my deposit back and thus void my winnings.

The bonus rule didn't say anything about voiding winnings only that I could potentially be excluded from future bonuses.

CS replied that: "You broke our terms and conditions and therefore we can void your winnings which were won with bonus money from HarryCasino.
Breaches, penalties and termination
11.1. If You breach any provision of these T&C or HarryCasino has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, HarryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.
Thank you for your understanding and have a pleasant day."

I don't agree with what they are saying. I didn't break their terms of use* but a bonus rule which are two different things + that rule only says that if I would break it I could potentially be excluded from future bonuses.

Second, They said that my winnings were won with bonus money... Since my account is closed I can't check if this is true but I'm almost sure that my balance never went under 100 (bonus amount) lowest I think it went was 150. So what they say isn't true.

Third, Nowhere in their terms or bonus rules is it stipulated that winnings with the bonus would be added to a bonus balance and I never saw that in the cashier or in the software.

I also asked customer support when they added that rule but they didn't want to answer that, I sent an email with another email account and they replied that the rule has been created since the launch of HarryCasino, which isn't true...

I asked to have for the email of the supervisor but they didn't want to give it to me...

What do you guy think?

*www.harrycasino.com/en/customersupport/terms-of-use/

 

[nepatsfan01]

Honestly, I think you're screwed. I've never seen a rule like this - sometimes they max it at a certain amount, but it's done automatically through the game... Never have I heard of having to check to make sure you weren't making more than 25% of your bet. I mean, what if you're at let's say $5.00 left in your account having taken a bonus and you decide to make a $5.00 wager just to see if you hit big... I do that all the time and once in a while I'll win a bit keep playing and eventually win enough to cash out. So many people would have their winnings voided at that point, because many people take bonuses as well... I know I do.

That being said, I know nothing about this particular casino, but just based other times casinos act like this, it usually means something is fishy. If the rule says clearly that they can void your winnings then that is what it states, but it only says that you'd forfeit all future bonuses then I'd say you'd have a fight. I'd PAB anyhow unless it is rogued, and you never know what will happen.

 

[rainmaker]

.

Hi there

Harry Casino is a great casino. They are operated by Betsson, so this casino is basically identical to the accredited CasinoEuro, although they are two different casinos (players can for example claim bonuses at both of these brands).

The 25% rule you are referring to is quite fair in my opinion (the same rule you will find at CasinoEuro):

You are not permitted to place bets of 25% or more of your total balance via a single game round, when completing wagering towards a bonus

Many casinos have similar rules (10% etc), or something like a €5 bet limit.

What you can do is to send the Betsson rep a private message: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

I am sure he can forward your complaint to the right people.

 

[Brooklyn]

Hi. Personally I find this rule really ridiculous.

Just wondering if he played those 25%+ bets and lost would they make a deal of it? Would they have even cared? I doubt it. I just don't get this rule at all.

If I played a slot game and only had a dollar left in my account, I couldn't play a 25 line slot with a one coin bet? Sorry if I am sounding a bit dense, I just don't get it.

On the other hand, each casino has their own terms and it's players responsibility to read them, even if it means re-reading the same rules a gabillion times.

 

[rainmaker]

Hi. Personally I find this rule really ridiculous.

Just wondering if he played those 25%+ bets and lost would they make a deal of it? Would they have even cared? I doubt it. I just don't get this rule at all.

You will find identical rules at many casinos, or similar rules like the one over at 32Red where they have a 6.25 bet limit on their welcome bonus.

No decent casino would of course use this rule if you were lucky and won on your last Euro. This is obviously meant to prevent players from for example claiming a bonus and then bet everything on "red"

 

[Mouche12]

I think the OP has a point - the bonus rule concerned should specifically state that if you exceed the 25% bet limit (before WR have been met) the casino reserves the right to confiscate any winnings or something along those lines. However, it only states that a player may be excluded from future bonuses. Even if this bonus rule ought to be deemed as included in the casino's T&Cs, the casino should have repeated the "right to confiscate any winnings (...)" in the bonus rule concerned - because the way it is phrased now does not give the casino the right to confiscate any winnings.

 

[dionysus]

I think the OP has a point - the bonus rule concerned should specifically state that if you exceed the 25% bet limit (before WR have been met) the casino reserves the right to confiscate any winnings or something along those lines. However, it only states that a player may be excluded from future bonuses. Even if this bonus rule ought to be deemed as included in the casino's T&Cs, the casino should have repeated the "right to confiscate any winnings (...)" in the bonus rule concerned - because the way it is phrased now does not give the casino the right to confiscate any winnings.

arryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.

 

[chuchu59]

The 25% rule seems to indicate that if the casino believes a player has contravened this rule they may potentially exclude the player from bonuses in the future. That's future tense. Also, note the word 'potentially' which means they may exclude players from breaking this rule from receiving bonuses at their discretion.

The wording is such that makes one believe they will be monitoring your play and if they dont like what they see they simply do not offer bonuses in future. The fact that they might still offer bonuses despite a violation of the rule is quite conciliatory in nature and would not lead to something drastic ie 'confiscation of winnings'.

 

[Nifty29]

The 25% rule seems to indicate that if the casino believes a player has contravened this rule they may potentially exclude the player from bonuses in the future. That's future tense. Also, note the word 'potentially' which means they may exclude players from breaking this rule from receiving bonuses at their discretion.

The wording is such that makes one believe they will be monitoring your play and if they dont like what they see they simply do not offer bonuses in future. The fact that they might still offer bonuses despite a violation of the rule is quite conciliatory in nature and would not lead to something drastic ie 'confiscation of winnings'.

Did you miss this one Chu?

11.1. If You breach any provision of these T&C or HarryCasino has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, HarryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.

 

[chuchu59]

Did you miss this one Chu?

Nope, I didnt miss it. As with all legal documents, lawyers always wrap up their wording by saying they have a right to take further legal action but it doesnt necessarily mean they are right nor do they have a divine right to confiscate winnings. When 2 terms are contradictory or seen to be so the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player.

 

[dionysus]

Nope, I didnt miss it. As with all legal documents, lawyers always wrap up their wording by saying they have a right to take further legal action but it doesnt necessarily mean they are right nor do they have a divine right to confiscate winnings. When 2 terms are contradictory or seen to be so the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player.

sorry, which 2 terms contradict one another

 

[chuchu59]

Hello everyone,

Last month on the 28th of October I made a deposit at harrycasino and received a 50% reload bonus and played. When I tried to log in couple of days later it said "account blocked" and contacted support and they told me that my account cannot be re-open because I broke terms.

I was very surprised by this, I have been playing every month with harrycasino for almost a year and now suddenly I broke a some terms?? I asked what terms did I broke and they said that I broke this rule:

"You are not permitted to place bets of 25% or more of your total balance via a single game round, when completing wagering towards a bonus. Players deemed to be adopting such a strategy could potentially be excluded from receiving bonuses in the future."Well normally I read the bonus rules every time I was offered a bonus but this time I didn't... This was a new bonus rule they added not long ago because 2 weeks or so before I played at harrycasino and didn't saw that rule.

They then said they would give me my deposit back and thus void my winnings.

The bonus rule didn't say anything about voiding winnings only that I could potentially be excluded from future bonuses.

CS replied that: "You broke our terms and conditions and therefore we can void your winnings which were won with bonus money from HarryCasino.
Breaches, penalties and termination
11.1. If You breach any provision of these T&C or HarryCasino has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, HarryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.Thank you for your understanding and have a pleasant day."

I don't agree with what they are saying. I didn't break their terms of use* but a bonus rule which are two different things + that rule only says that if I would break it I could potentially be excluded from future bonuses.

Second, They said that my winnings were won with bonus money... Since my account is closed I can't check if this is true but I'm almost sure that my balance never went under 100 (bonus amount) lowest I think it went was 150. So what they say isn't true.

Third, Nowhere in their terms or bonus rules is it stipulated that winnings with the bonus would be added to a bonus balance and I never saw that in the cashier or in the software.

I also asked customer support when they added that rule but they didn't want to answer that, I sent an email with another email account and they replied that the rule has been created since the launch of HarryCasino, which isn't true...

I asked to have for the email of the supervisor but they didn't want to give it to me...

What do you guy think?

*www.harrycasino.com/en/customersupport/terms-of-use/

These 2 terms (bolded), to me, are contradictory in nature. The first one seems to indicate that if the 25% rule is broken the player would only be excluded from future bonuses whereas the second one could mean that if the 25% rule is not adhered to winnings could be withheld. Now of course if one is stating that a 'punishment' for breaking the 25% rule is merely future exclusion from bonuses it should be taken that its exactly what they mean. Unless the 2 terms complement each other it must be clearly defined as to which one is prevailing lest it misleads the player.

 

[dionysus]

to me, they seem complementary; not only do you risk forfeiture of funds, you risk receiving any future bonuses

 

[chuchu59]

to me, they seem complementary; not only do you risk forfeiture of funds, you risk receiving any future bonuses

Let's just say we agree to disagree here.

 

[dionysus]

sure

 

[Digi]

I think that the terms : "11.1. If You breach any provision of these T&C or HarryCasino has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, HarryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You." apply if you break the terms of use and not for the bonus rules (promotional terms). So rule 11.1 doesn't apply here.

 

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr. Maker.

I was gonna say, that's a terrible rule.

I can totes Mcgoates understand the bonus rules as it applies to bonus abusers.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If the casino is so honest, why won't they answer straight foward questions like "when was this rule put in place".

They have also made the terms unnecessarily complicated by having a rule that they simply ban the player from future bonuses, when in fact they don't apply this term, but use a harsher term found elsewhere. They don't need both terms, just the harsher one.

In fact, it is deceptive to have a less harsh "dud" penalty term as having seen it, the player is less likely to go looking for the other term.

It's just as bad as casinos using the work "may" when they actually mean "will". This is a tactic to make the terms appear more generous than they are, and is deceptive. They want to apply the harsher measures, but don't want players to read how harsh the measures really are lest they decide they don't want to play under such conditions.

It is true that if this went before a court, the less harsh term would be deemed to be the true one, and the harsher contradictory one struck out. Unfortunately, casinos are seldom held to account this way, so they get away with it.

The 25% rule itself is a fair one, but muddled implementation like this gives it a bad name.

Such rules can be implemented via the software, but they can't be arsed. Why should they, they can always void the winnings later, and this is cheaper than having the additional coding work done on the software to ensure such terms are enforced at source.

 

[skiny]

You can't just say 25%.

25% of your balance could be 1 cent. For this to be a fair rule there needs to be a betting range or an exact amount.

Your max bet can't exceed -
10% of your total deposit. (not balance.)
25% of your balance or $1 - Which ever is higher.

Personally I think these T&Cs are all BS anyway. If you don't want people to win by taking deposit bonuses then stop offering deposit bonuses. Over all the casino is always going to come out ahead. It's ok if the odd player does once in a while.

The first time a casino gives me a hard time about making a withdrawal or winning with a bonus is the last time I play there. Show the casino who the real boss is. Go play somewhere else.

 

[rainmaker]

You can't just say 25%.

25% of your balance could be 1 cent. For this to be a fair rule there needs to be a betting range or an exact amount.

Your max bet can't exceed -
10% of your total deposit. (not balance.)
25% of your balance or $1 - Which ever is higher.

Yeah, this is something I can agree with. It would be better if they had made this rule a bit more easy to understand by saying for example that the max bet when playing with a bonus is €15 or whatever.

I shall give Harry and CasinoEuro a heads about this.

But as I said earlier. This rule is obviously designed to prevent players from taking a bonus and then bet everything on "red" etc. I do not think that neither Harry or CasinoEuro would ever use this rule unfairly. If they have used it, then I am sure they have a very good reason for it.

 

[skiny]

Yeah, this is something I can agree with. It would be better if they had made this rule a bit more easy to understand by saying for example that the max bet when playing with a bonus is €15 or whatever.

I shall give Harry and CasinoEuro a heads about this.

But as I said earlier. This rule is obviously designed to prevent players from taking a bonus and then bet everything on "red" etc. I do not think that neither Harry or CasinoEuro would ever use this rule unfairly. If they have used it, then I am sure they have a very good reason for it.

I guess we're going to find out, aren't we Digi?

 

[rainmaker]

I guess we're going to find out, aren't we Digi?

Yeah Digi. It would be interesting if you could tell us how you played ?

 

[akrus88]

Highly doubt that a group like Betsson would try to cheat players with a term like that. Simply made to avoid the bonus abuse.
Allso agree, it would be much more clear to state: max bet while playing with bonus: 25% of the balance, or max 5€ (in case balance under 20€).

 

[Betsson-Group]

Hey Guys,

To be clear - HarryCasino is operated by Betsson - but its not Betsson brand. Anyway i have asked person from HarryCasino to reply for this issue and here it is:

''Hi Patryk,

This player has violated the T&C of Harry Casino by playing games, for example Trey Poker which is the game he plays, where you are not permitted to place bets of 25% or more of your total balance via a single game round, when completing wagering towards a bonus. Beside that Casino bonuses are reserved for HarryCasino games only and cannot be used to play Casino Poker as per T&C.

Next to this the T&C gives us the possibillity to close his account:

11.1. If You breach any provision of these T&C or HarryCasino has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, HarryCasino reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold any money in your account (including the deposit) and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.
11.2. If HarryCasino suspects that You are engaged in illegal or fraudulent activities when using the Website; or in breach of this Agreement; or that You are having problems with creditors or otherwise detrimental to our business, we may freeze or terminate Your account or cancel any stakes at our absolute discretion.
11.3. You acknowledge that HarryCasino shall be the final decision-maker of whether You have violated HarryCasino's rules, terms or conditions in a manner that results in HarryCasino's suspension or permanent barring from participation in our site.

The player of course agreed and ticked this box when he registered.

Kind regards,''

From my side - rules are rules.

Regards
Patryk

 

[rainmaker]

.

Thanks for that Mr Patryk