Bonus Complaint Club Gold reduced withdrawal amount due to progressive slot play

stokes

Experienced Greenhorn
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Location
Springfield
I have mixed feelings about Club Gold Casino.
They have excellent bonuses with no wagering requirements, friendly and very fast online support. On the other hand the cashout are sometimes slow (especially in the past) and now this issue.

I normally use bonus for my deposits. I used MADNESS bonus code, which has no wagering attached.
I played slots and I was pretty lucky I was able to withdraw 2000 euro at the end of the day. I logged in after a couple of hours as I had some chips left after the withdrawal, but I was surprised to see not only all my chips gone, but my withdrawal was reduced to 585 euro.
When I checked with online support what happened they informed me that I played progressve slots which is not allowed with this bonus so they removed the excess which came from the progressive slot play winnings. They said I was playing Greatest Odissey which is considered as progressive slot. I tried to explain them that I played that slot, but I did not use the Dollar Ball which makes this slot progressive, so I did not have a chance to win the jackpot (which is the reason to ban this game from promotion). It is not the same type like Gold Rally or Diamond Valley where the bet for the slot consists the progressive part.

In other words when I played a slot which is marked progressive, but I didn't play the progressive part which is prohibited.
 
I have mixed feelings about Club Gold Casino.
They have excellent bonuses with no wagering requirements, friendly and very fast online support. On the other hand the cashout are sometimes slow (especially in the past) and now this issue.

I normally use bonus for my deposits. I used MADNESS bonus code, which has no wagering attached.
I played slots and I was pretty lucky I was able to withdraw 2000 euro at the end of the day. I logged in after a couple of hours as I had some chips left after the withdrawal, but I was surprised to see not only all my chips gone, but my withdrawal was reduced to 585 euro.
When I checked with online support what happened they informed me that I played progressve slots which is not allowed with this bonus so they removed the excess which came from the progressive slot play winnings. They said I was playing Greatest Odissey which is considered as progressive slot. I tried to explain them that I played that slot, but I did not use the Dollar Ball which makes this slot progressive, so I did not have a chance to win the jackpot (which is the reason to ban this game from promotion). It is not the same type like Gold Rally or Diamond Valley where the bet for the slot consists the progressive part.

In other words when I played a slot which is marked progressive, but I didn't play the progressive part which is prohibited.

My advice is to contact the rep here at CM.

It's a tough one.

If the game is listed as progressive, so obviously considered progressive by the casino, then playing it would be considered as playing a progressive under bonus terms.

However, if you had no chance to win the jackpot by not playing the dollar ball, then I'm struggling to see how it disadvantages the casino. A reasonable person would conclude that you weren't out to gain an advantage by breaching terms.

On balance, I think your full winnings should be reinstated.
 
My advice is to contact the rep here at CM.

It's a tough one.

If the game is listed as progressive, so obviously considered progressive by the casino, then playing it would be considered as playing a progressive under bonus terms.

However, if you had no chance to win the jackpot by not playing the dollar ball, then I'm struggling to see how it disadvantages the casino. A reasonable person would conclude that you weren't out to gain an advantage by breaching terms.

On balance, I think your full winnings should be reinstated.

Thanks. My thoughts exactly.

I have already contacted Carmel last Friday. No reply yet.
 
You should never give the chance to any casino to keep your winnings. Most casinos act similar to insurance companies, they will review everything and try to find that little thing that will give them a reason not to pay you.

Don't break any rule and stay away from gray areas.
 
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I agree with Nifty that this is a tough one.

But I think I need to say that the casino most likely has done the right thing in this case. I logged into my Bet365 account and the game Greatest Odyssey is a game that is clearly marked as a progressive jackpot game in the "progressive games" section. The current progressive jackpot is also visible at the menu before you enter the game. This was at Bet365 so not sure about Club Gold, but I am guessing they have some of the same layout.

Whether you actually used the dollar ball or not is not important in my opinion since it is the game that is prohibited according to T&C.

Good Luck. Maybe they will give you some goodwill if you are a loyal customer :D
 
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I agree with Nifty that this is a tough one.

But I think I need to say that the casino most likely has done the right thing in this case. I logged into my Bet365 account and the game Greatest Odyssey is a game that is clearly marked as a progressive jackpot game in the "progressive games" section. The current progressive jackpot is also visible at the menu before you enter the game. This was at Bet365 so not sure about Club Gold, but I am guessing they have some of the same layout.

Whether you actually used the dollar ball or not is not important in my opinion since it is the game that is prohibited according to T&C.

Good Luck. Maybe they will give you some goodwill if you are a loyal customer :D

As I said in my first post. I am questioning the logic to prohibit this and all other so-called progressive slot which the slot itself is not progressive (only the Dollar Ball option makes it). I did not use the progressive option by not playing the progressive part and as Nifty pointed out I was not out to gain any advantage by playig this specific slot.

Goodwill? Like 25 euro freebie for confiscating 1500 euro? :rolleyes:
 
As I said in my first post. I am questioning the logic to prohibit this and all other so-called progressive slot which the slot itself is not progressive (only the Dollar Ball option makes it). I did not use the progressive option thus not playing the progressive part and as Nifty pointed out I was not out to gain any advantage by playig this specific slot.

Goodwill? Like 25 euro freebie for confiscating 1500 euro? :rolleyes:

All I am saying is that it is the game itself that is prohibited and not certain functions in the game. One may disagree with the rule but you should obviously have clarified this with CS before you started to play this game.

Keep us updated about your case once you have received a reply from the rep :)
 
As I said in my first post. I am questioning the logic to prohibit this and all other so-called progressive slot which the slot itself is not progressive (only the Dollar Ball option makes it). I did not use the progressive option by not playing the progressive part and as Nifty pointed out I was not out to gain any advantage by playig this specific slot.

Goodwill? Like 25 euro freebie for confiscating 1500 euro? :rolleyes:

Yes the logic is questionable but it is a progressive slot by definition so even if they dont pay you there is nothing you can do. Again , the question of blocking prohibited arises. You wont get paid the progressive even if you played and without it its just one normal slot.
 
All I am saying is that it is the game itself that is prohibited and not certain functions in the game. One may disagree with the rule but you should obviously have clarified this with CS before you started to play this game.

Keep us updated about your case once you have received a reply from the rep :)


I'll have to call bullshit on this one, and I posted my worries some years ago. Playtech added this Dollar Ball to almost every damn video slot some while back, making ALL the games potentially progressive. I said at the time this was a sneaky move as it would mean the vast majority of the slots would no longer be allowed for bonuses. I am sure I was told not to be so silly, and that common sense would prevail and that play on the non progressive base game without making the Dollar ball bet would be OK.

Now I can say "told you so", because now Playtech ARE using the mere availabilty of Dollar ball to void winnings, even though this is present on almost every slot now, and can be enabled by the player as a side bet.

I had a Playtech casino installed at the time, so went through all the slots games to see which ones were 100% safe, not having the dollar ball even as an option. I found it had been added EVERYWHERE except a small number of "classic" slots. It seems this rule will ban play on all the video slots, and restrict it to a few classics.

The listing is a red herring, the games can appear under multiple categories, and is only listed under progressives because it has the optional dollar ball bet.

Rather than run the gauntlet of this bullshit, I quit playing Playtech completely, and just as well it seems.

There is no need for this rule in the first place, the games are all slots, and all of similar RTP. In fact, in terms of "bonus abuse", playing a progessive is a bad idea because the RTP of the base game is much lower, so less chance of making WR, and less chance of a decent sized non progressive win too.

"bonus abusers" will be looking at the non progressives, looking for medium or high variance for the big hit, and low variance for the grind.
 
I had a Playtech casino installed at the time, so went through all the slots games to see which ones were 100% safe, not having the dollar ball even as an option. I found it had been added EVERYWHERE except a small number of "classic" slots. It seems this rule will ban play on all the video slots, and restrict it to a few classics.


I looked at Bet365 again. They have 61 ordinary video slots and 30 progressive slots. Not sure if I can agree with your statement that all video slots are progressive.
 
I looked at Bet365 again. They have 61 ordinary video slots and 30 progressive slots. Not sure if I can agree with your statement that all video slots are progressive.

Have you checked the branded ones too (Marvel)? Because they are not allowed either to play with bonus.
 
Have you checked the branded ones too (Marvel)? Because they are not allowed either to play with bonus.

Yes, they are included in the 30 progressive I mentioned.

edit: 37 progressive. Counted a bit fast the first time hehe! But the point is that Bet365 has over 60 non progressive video slot games. I am sure that Club Gold also has some of these.
 
It was quite carefully explained to me that any slot that has a jackpot is not allowed, and I was given a link to the games:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


I actually think it's pretty decent of the casino to void only your wins on a disallowed game, and not your whole withdrawal, which we've seen often enough for breach of terms.

Some of their bonuses do allow play on jackpot or branded (Premium) slots, but at increased wagering (65X IIRC), and there is a deposit boost for Moneybookers and Neteller that comes without restrictions.

While it does suck to find you've breached terms, a quick question to support would have answered your question before play.

One thing I have did in the past was withdraw, immediately reverse and not take any bonus, and then make a second smaller withdrawal. Then I'm free to go play anything I want.
 
Hi

The game played was under the progressive category which is clearly not allowed.

If we are to follow the player’s argument then it would mean that a player could play any game and that we would only have issues if he/she won a jackpot.

The fact that the player did not trigger the dollar ball feature does not change the fact that this game is in the progressive category.

To further avoid players playing on disallowed games we have inserted a category label on top of each progressive and branded game (as per attachment).
This in an extra step even though the progressive category is already defined in the casino lobby.

Furthermore we did not invent this category, it was provided to us by Playtech. We have it on the popup upon accepting the bonus and it is clearly categorized in the lobby.

We clearly leave no room for mistake, nor have we induced the player to make one.
 

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Sorry; with the casino on this one. (Most) of us know progressives are a no-no when it comes to bonus play at (most) casinos. Whether you played the triggering bet or not, it's still a prohibited game. Like Jas, I think it was decent of the casino to pay out the portion in this case. It seems they had a case to void all winnings.
 
Hi

The game played was under the progressive category which is clearly not allowed.

If we are to follow the player’s argument then it would mean that a player could play any game and that we would only have issues if he/she won a jackpot.

The fact that the player did not trigger the dollar ball feature does not change the fact that this game is in the progressive category.

To further avoid players playing on disallowed games we have inserted a category label on top of each progressive and branded game (as per attachment).
This in an extra step even though the progressive category is already defined in the casino lobby.

Furthermore we did not invent this category, it was provided to us by Playtech. We have it on the popup upon accepting the bonus and it is clearly categorized in the lobby.

We clearly leave no room for mistake, nor have we induced the player to make one.

No matter how you dress it up, it's still a bullshit term providing an unnecessary pitfall for the unwary.

This reminds me of another of my early cynical predictions. Years ago, players were advised that they could stay clear of trouble by following one very simple rule when taking a bonus. It was "play slots, and you will be fine".

This is no longer the case, and one casino after another has shunted arbitrary slots into the "not allowed" category. From the point of view of the player, there is no need for this, it is just there to trap the careless. Adding the dollar ball feature was just a way to ban even more slots that themselves are not progressive, but now are because this optional facility has been added. EVERY slot game actually "has a jackpot", whether or not it is progressive. Whilst winnings get confiscated, I bet you keep 100% of what players LOSE on the wrong games.

This predatory behaviour is particularly prevalent among Playtech casinos. Whilst others ban progressives with a bonus, they do NOT render almost half their entire library of slot games "progressive" by sticking on this dollar ball feature.
I was playing a Playtech casino the very week they pulled this stunt software wide, and only a minority of slots were progressive. Suddenly, the standard slots I had been playing for years with bonus suddenly had this new dollar ball feature. Not wanting to risk anything, I went to another, and another, and every damn one in my favourites had been "dollar balled". I went through every single video slot there, and only TWO didn't have dollar ball added. This meant that for the "slots bonus", only TWO slots were actually eligible, and they were both crap. The casino got uninstalled, and I have stayed away from Playtech ever since.

It may be better now, with more slots available there are more than two that are OK, but now it seems yet another banned category has been added, and a completely pointless one at that, the so called "premium" slots. There is no obvious reason to ban these other than to set another trap for the unwary, leaving players to micromanage their sessions like a legal exercise, when all they want to do is cast their cares to the wind and "hit the slots" with their bankroll. Playtech bonuses are not even cashable, so the bonus money itself never leaves the casino even when a player wins.

Microgaming, my favoured software, has a relatively small number of progressives among it's 400 or so games, most of which are slots. Of the allowed slots, there are all kinds of categories, even "premium" ones like Tomb Raider. Common sense has prevailed though, and as far as Microgaming is concerend, slots are slots, and the themes are nothing more than "eye candy", and make no difference at all to the outcome, or indeed the amount a player will often lose trying to meet WR.

You can spray bullshit with perfume, and put it in a smart suit, but it remains bullshit, even though it is much easier to spot and avoid.

No one Playtech can be singled out over this, the whole empire is riddled with this "trap the unwary" policy. Regular recreations player (the ones considered "innocent") are the main victims, whereas the advantage players (or "bonus abusers") will have gone through the terms carefully, looking for loopholes. What APs will be interested in is the "no WR" aspect of this bonus, which means a "hit and run" strategy can be used, and this does not need progressive slots, it will work just as well, if not better, on a regular allowed slot, but unlike a recreational player, they will run at the best time mathematically, and although the casino may try to confiscate the win, they will end up with a PR problem because no terms have been broken.

Things need to go back to being simpler, nothing fancy, just have slots bonuses that mean what they say, with ALL play on ANY slot OK.

I see that the multi vendor platforms are even worse when it comes to convoluted terms, with what country you are in governing which slots are OK, and which are in the banned list.

This is not going to encourage me to try Playtech again, in fact, those casinos I have played on other softwares have been dropped by me like the proverbial hot potato when they have informed me they are going to "improve" service by moving to Playtech.

I can't even bring myself to try an accredited Playtech casino, let alone any of the others.

I would like to hear a common sense argument as to why it is absolutely necessary to split the slots into allowed and banned categories, and I will not accept "because Playtech told us to", nor "because that is what the terms say". I see it as nothing more than setting unnecessary challenges for players, and basing the business model on xx% of players falling over one or more hurdles, not unlike those ridiculous cashback deals that were being offered in the UK where you bought a big ticket item, and were "guaranteed" your money back in full in 5 years. When investigated, and later banned by the government, it was revealed that the pitfalls were deliberately put in place to create situations where people would NOT get their money back. Some schemes were even underfunded, and RELIED on a set percentage of people not claiming, or falling into one of the traps. It went wrong when they underestimated the determination of the consumer in getting their money back, and they had to resort to rogue and illegal tactics in order to wrongly deny claims when too many customers were trying to get their money out of an underfunded scheme. Many schemes simply went bust, leaving the promises worthless, and this is what finally caused the government to act.
One such marketing scheme, which although not a cashback, relied on most customers not claiming. It was the notorious Hoover free flights fiasco. Hoover tried every dirty trick in the book, but so many customers claimed the flights that the scheme didn't have the money to actually provide them, and despite the dirty tricks, Hoover eventually went bust, killed by the losses from the promotion.

It illustrates that when a promotion looks too good to be viable to operate, there are bound to be a few sneaky tricks involved. The "too good to be true" in this case is a bonus with no WR. The "trick" is that this "slots bonus" excludes around 50% of the slot games, and players have to tread carefully.

Whilst progressives are in the progressives category, they can also be found lurking in other categories too, so one can click on a banned slot via it's listing in a different category, see "dollar ball", and that it is optional, and think that "dollar ball" is a completely separate game, and nothing to do with the basic slot, so should be OK if switched off during play. This was my experience of the listing of the "dollar ball" slots.

A better way would be to have two variants of the slot, one under progressives where the dollar ball can be played, and another where only the slot itself is offered, with dollar ball not even present.

A third way exists, run a casino that does not rely on bonuses to drive marketing, but something else, such as a weekly cashback, no strings, on losses on certain games. Players would still get a bonus on their play, but it would not affect the games they could play during their session. If they lose, the cashback would only be calculated on losses made on the featured games. If generous enough, the cashback could replace bonuses altogether, and an enhanced loyalty point redemption rate could be tried as another way to encourage more play.

Such a casino could not expect to become an overnight success, but it could grow a player base from all those who took bonuses elsewhere, and thought they were designed to trap them in a no-win situation.
 
Hi

The game played was under the progressive category which is clearly not allowed.

If we are to follow the player’s argument then it would mean that a player could play any game and that we would only have issues if he/she won a jackpot.

Correct, you should only void winnings that were as a result of playing the Dollar Ball feature. If the player never enabled the Dollar Ball feature, he has in fact never a played a progressive slot.
 
I love club gold and everything they bring to the table aside from this incident. He had no chance to win the jackpot as he wasnt playing the $1 ball.

However, it clearly states not to play progressives and that game is listed directly under the progressive. You need to be more careful.

I would like to see the casino offer up something here
 
Hi

The game played was under the progressive category which is clearly not allowed.

If we are to follow the player’s argument then it would mean that a player could play any game and that we would only have issues if he/she won a jackpot.

The fact that the player did not trigger the dollar ball feature does not change the fact that this game is in the progressive category.

To further avoid players playing on disallowed games we have inserted a category label on top of each progressive and branded game (as per attachment).
This in an extra step even though the progressive category is already defined in the casino lobby.

Furthermore we did not invent this category, it was provided to us by Playtech. We have it on the popup upon accepting the bonus and it is clearly categorized in the lobby.

We clearly leave no room for mistake, nor have we induced the player to make one.

Thanks for the answer.

My problem with your reasoning is what I stated in our correspondence earlier today. You don't consider the logic behind the rule. The progressive slot prohibited to avoid winning the jackpot with a bonus. Which was impossible in my case.

I made a mistake. I considered your casino is similar to those Playtech casinos I am familiar with.
Like Carnival Casino or Europa Casino where I am suggested by the chat support to play progressives to hit big after depositing and using bonus.
I played progressive slots, even roulette (not with a hit and run strategy) with their bonus and I was able to cashout bigger amounts (9000 USD and 4000 USD) without any problem. They reviewed my games history and decided to pay without any question even though they could have refused it based on the strict terms.

Lessons learnt. Club Gold Casino could have shown its goodwill, but it didn't. I will patronize other Playtech casinos which are more favourable to my playstyle.

A couple of questions remained.

1. Why Playtech is unable to limit playing the prohibited games with bonus like Rival?

2. Would you have reinstated my 585 euro if I lost it (instead of winning 15000 euro) on the progressive slot, because all bet was supposed void?

3. Have you put the 1500 euro back to the game, because it has been won from it or you just simple removed from my balance and that's that?
 
Thanks for the answer.

My problem with your reasoning is what I stated in our correspondence earlier today. You don't consider the logic behind the rule. The progressive slot prohibited to avoid winning the jackpot with a bonus. Which was impossible in my case.

I made a mistake. I considered your casino is similar to those Playtech casinos I am familiar with.
Like Carnival Casino or Europa Casino where I am suggested by the chat support to play progressives to hit big after depositing and using bonus.
I played progressive slots, even roulette (not with a hit and run strategy) with their bonus and I was able to cashout bigger amounts (9000 USD and 4000 USD) without any problem. They reviewed my games history and decided to pay without any question even though they could have refused it based on the strict terms.

Lessons learnt. Club Gold Casino could have shown its goodwill, but it didn't. I will patronize other Playtech casinos which are more favourable to my playstyle.

A couple of questions remained.

1. Why Playtech is unable to limit playing the prohibited games with bonus like Rival?

2. Would you have reinstated my 585 euro if I lost it (instead of winning 15000 euro) on the progressive slot, because all bet was supposed void?

3. Have you put the 1500 euro back to the game, because it has been won from it or you just simple removed from my balance and that's that?


A) I could be wrong, but I can't see Bryan supporting this (awarding the player). In principle, I don't see the difference between the Jag thread concerning the bot. It may be a dumb rule, but it's a rule regardless. B) Unless I'm wrong, I think voided jackpots are reabsorbed by the casinos.
 
A) I could be wrong, but I can't see Bryan supporting this (awarding the player). In principle, I don't see the difference between the Jag thread concerning the bot. It may be a dumb rule, but it's a rule regardless. B) Unless I'm wrong, I think voided jackpots are reabsorbed by the casinos.

I have to agree. I have had a flutter at Club Gold before and Progressive Slots are clearly marked as Progressive so Im not sure why just because one doesnt play the 'dollar ball' it would be allowed when it is clearly stated, Progressive slots are a No no...

Wheather one plays the 'dollar ball' or not, why would you play on a 'progressive machine' when you knew the rule? Just saying :)
 
I have to agree. I have had a flutter at Club Gold before and Progressive Slots are clearly marked as Progressive so Im not sure why just because one doesnt play the 'dollar ball' it would be allowed when it is clearly stated, Progressive slots are a No no...

Wheather one plays the 'dollar ball' or not, why would you play on a 'progressive machine' when you knew the rule? Just saying :)

Other than I never considered those Dollar Ball games to be progressive, maybe because of my experience with other playtech casinos.
 
A) I could be wrong, but I can't see Bryan supporting this (awarding the player). In principle, I don't see the difference between the Jag thread concerning the bot. It may be a dumb rule, but it's a rule regardless. B) Unless I'm wrong, I think voided jackpots are reabsorbed by the casinos.

For your info. There was no jackpot won, only normal lucky winnings.
I don't think it was put back to the pot again.
 
Other than I never considered those Dollar Ball games to be progressive, maybe because of my experience with other playtech casinos.

This is the big problem with this. Playtech added this "dollar ball" to almost every damn videoslot they offered, so if they now even class the base game as progressive because of this, I see it as nothing more than a "dirty trick" designed to exclude as many slots as possible from play with a bonus. They have dressed this trick up with some vague logic about not wanting players to hit a big progressive with a bonus (why does this matter?), but the way it has been used here exposes the fact that this is not about winning progressives at all, but about severely narrowing the choice of games that can be played with a bonus, whilst being able to still market it as a "most slots" eligible offer.

Maybe they should list the games you CAN play without falling foul of this rule, and then give the total number of slots games they have. I bet we will see that this offer only allows play on the MINORITY of slot games, hardly "most slots".

I see excluding arbitrary groups of slots as an unneccessary hurdle for players, it apprears to offer nothing for the operator, and nothing for the player if the restriction isn't there. It's only value is to provide a reason to void winnings, which does favour the operator because losses are kept too.

The problem of returning progressives to the pool where voided due to such terms has been addressed by another casino, who offered up "Playtech has no mechanism for returning the money to the pool". I interpret this as "we pocket the money ourselves". We have a number of joyless cases where casino operators have pocketed substantial progressive wins that they have voided due to some terms. The sums pocketed have been very large indeed, the record being over $4 million "won" by a South African player, with $2 Million being pocketed from a Canadian player who won $4 million because she was told she would either have to wait 30 years for the full amount, or take half now. She took half, and 6 months later the casino closed down. Clearly she would have received far less than half had she gone for the 30 year payment plan. There was no need for this either, Playtech had paid the entire $4 million in one go, and when Will Hill Online took over the casino, they could find no trace of what happened to the other $2 Million, but it certainly didn't go back in the pool, nor was it part of the casino's assets when Will Hill took it over.

If this is the norm, then it is ESSENTIAL that the software prevents play on progressives when it is against the terms, as it is not just the offending player that stands to suffer, but EVERY player that has legitimately played the game in the expectation that some lucky PLAYER will end up with the Jackpot.
 

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