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Thread: 7Sultans Owe me £12k - Anyone Know Good Lawyer in Malta?

  1. #31
    vinylweatherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishcem View Post
    This is news to me. This isn't mentioned in the GG report. Just searched my PC and there is no casinos on there that weren't signed up by me. No chance 7Sultans was already signed up.. When I installed the software, it would have said it was already installed. Where did you get this info from?
    EDIT: Ah yes, see in the report it mentions first of all, thought it was referring to the 42 players when I first read it.



    I still don't understand how I could have 42 shots at it, if I was "creating other identities" like they said... How could I impersonate these people? I only have one passport which I can take to their offices personally if they like.

    So what they are saying is that Neteller (the payment processor) has told them that I am linked to/creating 42 other players?

    As for the bet amount and casino playing, I have been playing in bricks and mortar casinos for quite a few years, I don't claim to be a newbie.. I normally play what most people would consider high stakes at Blackjack and Baccarat, and have been playing poker for a couple of years too. But this is the biggest amount I have ever won in one single session.



    I can be arsed.. From advice given to me, I was told to use one of the mediator sites like GG, then use the licencing authority (LGA, but they are useless), then sue them. I honestly didn't think these other mediation sites would be much use if the reccommended one I used didn't get anywhere.
    Despite this, it is a common tactic. The revelation of Neteller as the processor means that the "42 links" are probably because of peer to peer money transfers that give the impression that the 42 players are sharing a common bankroll within Neteller. This means that you now have a lead on who these others are, they are those who sent you money via Neteller, or those you have sent money via Neteller. What Neteller can't determine is WHY the money was sent, but the assumption is that no-one would send money for no reason to someone they know nothing about, nor have transacted with. Further, these 42 players all play at online casinos, which is not that surprising since Neteller was created initially as a means to funnel money between players and casinos in the US when banks started making life difficult for the industry. The current multi purpose Neteller is down to expansion after they got kicked out of the US market by the DoJ, and lost their main source of revenue.

    Creating fake details is probably not what happens in these cases, as the player has no way of knowing which account to create with the correct details until after a big hit has been made. This means that all accounts must use identities that can be backed up by documentation as soon as one wins. Often, it is a small group, even an individual, who plays on a large number of identities, either stolen, or used with the permission of the owner in exchange for a "cut" of any proceeds. Similarly, such individuals could use these identities to operate a number of individual Neteller accounts, and move money between them as needed.

    This type of fiddle is similar to that employed by "benefit cheats", who often manage to fool the government by "playing" at several different local authorities to make detection much harder.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same group of people using what they have set up to defraud the country of benefit payments to scam online casinos in order to make even more money. It's not really "their" money to start with, so they are more likely to "walk away" from significant sums if pursuing them too vigorously might expose a much larger part of their scheme, leading to the whole thing getting shut down.
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  2. #32
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  3. #33
    Slot Mad is offline Newbie member
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    Neteller?

    Why would Neteller tell an online casino about people using their service to transfer money between themselves?
    It's not illegal and Neteller would surely have no right, even if they had the inclination, to reveal anything like that to any casino.
    That's very odd.
    I would put money on this player being in a syndicate, but syndicates aren't illegal.



  4. #34
    thelawnet is offline Knave of Hearts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Mad View Post
    Why would Neteller tell an online casino about people using their service to transfer money between themselves?
    It's not illegal and Neteller would surely have no right, even if they had the inclination, to reveal anything like that to any casino.
    That's very odd.
    I would put money on this player being in a syndicate, but syndicates aren't illegal.
    You make an interesting point. Somebody who was affected by this could possibly complain about Neteller to the appropriate regulator.

    As I understand it the issue is this:

    Casino has certain terms in its contract with the player
    Casino suspects player has broken those terms, and asks Neteller for help.
    Neteller discloses all kinds of info about the player to the casino.

    Eh?

    I don't think a bank would do this.

    I'm not convinced it's legal.



  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawnet View Post
    You make an interesting point. Somebody who was affected by this could possibly complain about Neteller to the appropriate regulator.

    As I understand it the issue is this:

    Casino has certain terms in its contract with the player
    Casino suspects player has broken those terms, and asks Neteller for help.
    Neteller discloses all kinds of info about the player to the casino.

    Eh?

    I don't think a bank would do this.

    I'm not convinced it's legal.
    I have to agree. Why would Neteller do this? How could they do this? Share confidential information with an outside party We know banks definitely dont do this, and isnt Neteller a form of bank? Blimmin heck, I am sooo being put off using Web Wallets at the moment

    Anyway back on to the topic...hehe 7 Sultans has been around for awhile and one of my favourite casinos so this thread is interesting. What I dont understand is why they think you have 42 accounts? I've read about people who have had 2 or 3 or maybe even more but how on earth would someone have 42 accounts and think they'd get away with it

    OP seems pretty savy so Im sure they know quite well, that the likelihood of using more than a few accounts and getting away with it is soooo not gonna happen. So where is the big mix up happening?

    Just curious To the thread author. Are you in a syndicate? I dont think that's against the rules is it? And are you in fact sharing a bank roll through Neteller with said syndicate? Perhaps this is what the casino thinks is happening that you are part of a syndicate? I dont know, all guess work here



  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelawnet View Post
    You make an interesting point. Somebody who was affected by this could possibly complain about Neteller to the appropriate regulator.

    As I understand it the issue is this:

    Casino has certain terms in its contract with the player
    Casino suspects player has broken those terms, and asks Neteller for help.
    Neteller discloses all kinds of info about the player to the casino.

    Eh?

    I don't think a bank would do this.

    I'm not convinced it's legal.
    Neteller is not a bank and should not be placed in the same class as a bank.

    General Terms of Use 13.2 states that certain information can be disclosed to merchants. It may be that the ops neteller information closely or partially matched those of other players. Neteller allows multiple accounts in one household.



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    @ turkishcem

    I'm asking you to PAB. We have strict rules in this forum about posting complaints, and you're already in violation of them.

    It's your responsibility to contact their casino rep when initiating a complaint thread. You read the rules of this forum and agreed to them. You are also not to use subjective flaming terms such as "crooks". That's violating rule 1.1 - no flaming, harassing other members. Fortune Lounge has been a member of this forum for donkey years. Before posting any further, I would recommend that you refresh your knowledge on what behavior is expected of our members. The rules can be found here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/..._posting_rules

    Our policies are found here:
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    I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and I truly hope that there has been an error made on the side of the casino (it's happened before). But we will not get to the bottom of this unless you submit a PAB, or contact eCOGRA now.

    Please read the PAB FAQ and submit it today. Thank you.
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  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Casinomeister For This Useful Post:

    ksech (26th February 2012), LaHutti (26th February 2012), mattsgame (26th February 2012), Mousey (26th February 2012), Realitybitez (26th February 2012), SlotsLover (26th February 2012)

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Mad View Post
    Why would Neteller tell an online casino about people using their service to transfer money between themselves?
    It's not illegal and Neteller would surely have no right, even if they had the inclination, to reveal anything like that to any casino.
    That's very odd.
    I would put money on this player being in a syndicate, but syndicates aren't illegal.

    It's known that Neteller do this if asked by a casino to help in investigating suspicious activity. I don't know that they actually name the other persons involved, but they look at peer to peer money transfers as grounds to "link" account holders, hence we get "this player is linked to 42 other players". I think FL only know the names behind linked accounts in their group, and have only been given the quantity of other links.

    Neteller work VERY closely with the merchants, and will even disclose information about customers who are also customers of a merchant without there being a legal requirement to do so. Banks on the other hand, need some kind of legal instrument served on them in order to get them to disclose information. This usually means that only the police or similar body can get such information from a bank during an investigation, with anyone else needing a court order before being given such information.

    Unlike banks, Neteller have a one account per person policy. Banks will allow one customer to have separate accounts, and even promote this by suggesting it is better to have separate accounts for separate things. My bank now promotes a "second current account" to me every time I log on, saying it will allow me to better manage my finances. It probably could, but not in the way they think.


    If someone could have more than one Neteller account, they could make it much harder to trace "links" between players through the peer to peer money transfers.

    Since Neteller has always been intended as a vehicle to store and transfer gambling funds, such peer to peer transfers are looked at as bankroll sharing between players unless shown to be otherwise. Repeated to and fro transfers between two or more players is considered certain evidence of bankroll sharing, and creates "strong links" between players.

    Bankroll sharing is considered a violation of the general terms of online casinos, as is participating as a member of a "syndicate", or when gambling as a "profession" rather than a hobby.

    It is very much like you spending money with a business here in the UK, and them enforcing a rule that you cannot share the costs with other friends by checking with your bank for signs that other people have been wiring money in to share in the costs, and that you have been sending them money likewise.

    You could never imagine this happening in "real world" transactions with business, but it is common practice among online casinos to check for cost sharing between players.

    It's not illegal, but casinos have made it against their terms, and since Neteller is "in the pockets" of the online gambling industry, they will cooperate fully with enforcing such rules.


    Depositing money into Neteller is not all that different from buying a "love to shop" gift card. Both can be spent at a number of outlets, and the money is no longer considered "real", and is thus exempt from protections such as the Financial Compensation Scheme. The only real difference is that with Neteller, the money can flow back into "real money", whereas a shopping gift card can never be redeemed back for cash.

    Consider Neteller money as a "love to gamble" gift card, and look after the money there as such.
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  11. #39
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    Just to re-iterate....Neteller's Terms state:

    (iii) for identity validation and verification purposes, the following information may be provided to Merchants and other Members to or from whom you transfer funds: name, Account number, jurisdiction, country of residence, postal code, Email address, and/or IP address.
    I could see how this information would be very helpful to a casino that suspected a player of fraud.

    AFAIC they can share whatever they like with the casinos I frequent. I have nothing to hide, and never will have.

    If it's one more effective tool to stop the cheating scum that spoil it for the rest of us, then I'm all for it.



  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifty29 View Post
    Just to re-iterate....Neteller's Terms state:


    I could see how this information would be very helpful to a casino that suspected a player of fraud.

    AFAIC they can share whatever they like with the casinos I frequent. I have nothing to hide, and never will have.

    If it's one more effective tool to stop the cheating scum that spoil it for the rest of us, then I'm all for it.
    This is what they OFFICIALLY share, but this case shows they shared MORE than this, because these 42 "links" were not all at Fortune Lounge. What Neteller have shared is information about players that were connected to one of their own players, but that did NOT play at Fortune Lounge themselves. They shared the information that their player was linked to these 42 other players through things like peer to peer transfers.

    This term would only have enabled FL to link this player with other Fortune Lounge players on it's books.

    This is also an insecure way to verify identity as it gives the merchant the raw data, whereas the merchant should give Neteller it's data on the player that used the Neteller account, and ask Neteller to confirm or deny the legitimacy of these details by checking with the data they hold on the account holder. Given that some merchants are located in Costa Rica and Panama, and other similar locations, Neteller should not be sending this data on request to these merchants, after all, ID verification is not the ONLY reason a dodgy operator would want such data on their players.
    Trust me, I'm a weatherman.



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