Roguish PKR revoking bonus for no reason.

[topoor]

They are claiming to be licensed by Alderney. The email I received advised me to complain to them if I am unhappy.

"As informed in your chat with Motie, if you wish to make a formal complaint regarding our decision then please contact Alderney at info@agcc.gg ."

The offical line from PKR when asked to explain what I have done wrong is:

motie: I do not dicuss abuse technic with customers or past customers.

Motie Bring is the head of transaction services.

[Rhyzz]

They may consider 'abuse' to be the fact that you deposited, withdrew, deposited & withdrew.

So long as the terms of the bonus were met, they cannot take the funds from you, although they can stop you from receiving offers in future. If they didn't then they would be mugs, but still.....

PKR going through some bad times at the moment anyway from what I hear. Their poker is no longer unique, Ladbrokes and Pokerwize offer a similar product with much higher liquidity and traffic going through the tables. They have launched the Casino probably knowing nothing about the industry and thinking it's going to be a nice easy way to make a little bit of cash.

Another site ruining the name of Playtech!!

[topoor]

What I find most disgraceful here is the attitude of PKR and its staff. They refuse to discuss this with me and the only explanation they offer is "bonus abuse". This is such a wide ranging term and it is one that is totally at their discretion. It is definately suspicious behaviour.

[topoor]

I have been trying to get some answers this morning as they have confirmed receipt of my documents by live chat. But they now refuse to communicate with me by chat yet it is a recognised method of communication for them and they have now blocked me from accessing it.

Victoria: Hi , My name is Victoria Dornan, I am The Head of Client Services
Me: Hello
Me: I am trying to ascertain when my money will be returned to me
Me: I have been treated disgracefully by your staff and company
Victoria: I would like to speak with you personally about this
Me: I have made a formal complaint to Alderney and posted on the casinomeister website
Victoria: Please can you provide me with a telephone number
Me: I will not discuss this issue by any media that does not ensure record keeping
Me: I have done nothing wrong yet I have been abused and victimised. I am 62 years old and retired
Me: I do not deserve this treatment
Victoria: Unless you can provide a phone number I can not discuss this further
Me: Please explain why?
Victoria: You have come through to the Head of Department so you can not go any higher
Me: I would have thought that a reputable company would be happy to communicate officially.
Me: Please clearly explain why you will not communicate with me in writing?
Victoria: I only deal with customers personally
Victoria: by telephone
Me: I only deal with frauds when records can be kept
Victoria: so unless you can provide me your number i will have to terminate this discussion
Me: I would advise you to think very carefully about that
Victoria: if you would like something in writing that is absolutely no problem
Victoria: We will write to you by email
Me: As I have stated I will not communicate by any media that a record cannot be kept of
Victoria: sure
Victoria: we will write to you
Me: I am offended that you will not speak to my reasonably
Me: *me
Victoria: so for now please be patient while we work this though and we will write to you
Me: No
Victoria: you have 2 options , either let me speak with you in a professional manner or we will write to you
Me: Please explain this situation to me.
Victoria: which option would you like to take?
Me: A professional manner is in writing. Why are you so insistent on no records
Victoria: ok then I will leave this conversation now and we will write to you
Victoria: thank you for your patience
Me: NO
Victoria: good bye
Me: Please explain why you refuse to use a vehicle that your
info: Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.

Of course at this point I will not communicate by any means other than in writing because I get the feeling that I will need evidence to support anything that is said. The live chat would be useful as it would allow discussion. Obiviously something that they are only interested in when there are no records.

[topoor]

I have sent an email to the Alderney Gambling Commission and copied in security@pkr.com. 30 mins later I received my original deposit back. Before I realised they had given me the refund I went to a local internet cafe and managed to get onto live chat.

Unbeliveable:

me: I do not appreciate being disconnected mid sentence
me: I also do not appreciate being blocked from accessing the live chat
me: I have an ongoing issue and I want to discuss it
Peter: this is because there is nothing further for CS to discuss with you
Peter: you have lodged a complaint with the AGCC
Peter: all further correspondence must be with them
Peter: as per their rules
me: Their rules state that you should discuss the issue with the partu concerned
me: and try to resolve the issue
me: The AGCC has been alerted to your disgraceful behaviour
me: At this time it is an alert
me: Whilst you have my money I will not go away
Peter: Motie has informed me that the remaining balance on your account has been sent to your moneybookers account, total: 515
me: You have told me that I will receive my money back so I am trying to find out when
Peter: we are, of course, retaining the bonus
Peter: so i recommend that you check your MB account
me: ANd you still refuse to explain why?
Peter: We're not authorised to explain in detail for security reasons
me: Then I will do my best to disgrace your company in public
me: I have already begun. You will NOT get away with this. Evryone wil know
Peter: look at it this way; if by some chance you actually don't know how to abuse our bonuses - there's no way we're about to tell you how
me: I look at it as theft
Peter: theft how? we've sent your money back
Peter: we just retained our own
Peter: check your moneybookers account
me: HOW?
me: You fraudulently got me to deposit and wager
me: You then refused to provide the incentive or bonus
me: YOU ARE SIMPLY CHEATS
Peter: bonuses are not a consumer right, your decisions are your own
me: Oh no no no
Peter: no no no?
me: You refusing to provide the bonus is exactly the same as you refusing to pay a winning bet
me: You promised me that you would pay me $250 if I wagered 10000 on allowed games
me: End of story you cheated
Peter: let's take a look at what you agreed to when using the bonus:
Peter: "PKRCasino reserves the right to withdraw or amend this offer at any time, without prior notice. The decision of the PKRCasino management team is final and no correspondence will be entered into."
Peter: they're found in full here:
Peter: http://www.pkrcasino.com/pkrcasino-p.../cash-bonuses/
Peter: we are perfectly within our rights
me: Withdraw or amend the offer not renege
Peter: withdraw
Peter: ...
me: Withdraw does not mean remove once it has been awarded
Peter: and section 9:
Peter: PKRCasino reserves the right to withhold any bonus payment if it believes that the promotion has been abused and/or where the terms of the offer are not fulfilled, or any irregular wagering patterns are found.
me: I am well aware of your terms
me: and none of them exscuse or explain your actions
Peter: then you know why it is impossible to accuse us of cheating
me: Your regulator will find in my favour
me: It is not
me: CHEATS
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: I will also be complaining to the Police and the ASA
me: You will not get away with this.
Peter: I will not get away with what?
Peter: informing you of the situation?
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: You will not get away with defrauding me
Peter: nobody has defrauded you, we provided a service, you used it - we've even sent your money back rather than seizing it
me: I would have loved to see you try and seize it
Peter: when you break the terms & conditions of account use, there are consequences
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: Please explain which terms and condtions I broke?
me: Becasue I am still waiting to know
Peter: I'm not authorised to discuss it in detail, as mentioned above;
Peter: if by some chance you actually don't know how to abuse our bonuses - there's no way we're about to tell you how
me: I do hope you are embarrassed
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: Well done, you have cheated a 62 year old woman
Peter: you have your money back
Peter: we've cheated no-one
me: As I stated this issue will not go away. I am retired and can devote my entire energy to resolving this
me: You have cheated me
me: You owe me $250
Peter: and as such, all correspondence must take place between yourself and the AGCC from now on
Peter: Customer Support can no longer help you in such cases of financial dispute
me: I recommend you visit the casinomeister site
Peter: we will continue to refuse your chats and block any connections you make to Live Chat
me: you can explain your actions to the gambling world there
Peter: why not just post this next to your comments:
Peter: "PKRCasino reserves the right to withhold any bonus payment if it believes that the promotion has been abused and/or where the terms of the offer are not fulfilled, or any irregular wagering patterns are found."
me: I have already posted it
Peter: it seems fairly self-explanatory
Peter: ok grand
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: Most people are appalled
me: They call it an FU clause which gives you carte blanche to behave as you will
me: Unacceptable in the gaming world apparantly
me: and extremely frowned upon by regulators
Peter: well thanks for giving the opinions of your forum buddies
Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
me: Is there any other insults you would like to make to the casinomeister site viewers?\
me: This whole chat will be posted there
Peter: i meant no insult, i was thanking you for your (and their) feedback


Under no circumstances can I or will I let this drop now that I have my deposit back. They way they have treated me and spoken to me is disgraceful. They seem to think they have the right to "seize" money! As far as I am aware only the goverment has the power to do that! Who do these people think they are?

[vinylweatherman]

Their resoning holds no water, don't forget:-

Last week I signed up for a new account with PKR Casino. I deposited $200 and received the signup bonus. I wagered around $10000 on Casino Holdem and withdrew my money with no problems. A day later I received an email from PKR inviting me to partake in another promotion. This time a 50% reload bonus of $250. Ideposited $500 and again wagered around $10000 on Casino Holdem. This time I did much better and won around $300 when the bonus was released. I withdrew again.

They INVITED you PERSONALLY to take the promotion, and they knew full well how you were likely to play it, and you played it in exactly the same way as the first time, which was within the rules.

They have acted against the rules of Alderney because you were INVITED to this second offer, you did not just "take" it. While they can show you the door, they CANNOT go back on a bet they have already accepted just because you won. If Alderney say they can, then they will lose a hell of a lot of respect here, as they probably already have by allowing PKR to behave in this incredibly rude manner to players, where Alderney rules actually REQUIRE them to have a proper and fair internal procedure rather than simply refusing to discuss the matter.

The invitation itself can be referred to the Advertising Standards Agency, since it was a false offer, and should not have been made to a player who they thought might be taking advantage of them.

Since this involves Casino Hold'em, and with modest bets between $1 and $5, I find it hard to work out where this "bonus abuse" argument is coming from. They are clearly up to something else, which may explain their unusual reluctance to deal with this matter internally between casino and player.

I was right about one thing though, it only took 30Mins to at least get your own money back after "name dropping" Alderney and Casinomeister

The fight for the winnings will be harder, but this issue will not go away until a proper explanation as to how a 62 year old woman managed to abuse a bonus with $5 bets on Casino Hold'em is forthcoming - this sounds like normal play to me, and you simply got lucky - you could just as easily have lost, and I bet the casino wouldn't be complaining, and would most likely have sent you a third bonus offer.

[topoor]

Thanks for your post Vinylweatherman. I have received a response from Alderney advising that they are investigating and that I should not try to communicate with PKR as they will do that on my behalf. I urge anyone (BlizeH?) who has had similar experiences to contact Alderney and make a complaint as in numbers I feel we will have some success.

[vinylweatherman]

Originally Posted by topoor

Thanks for your post Vinylweatherman. I have received a response from Alderney advising that they are investigating and that I should not try to communicate with PKR as they will do that on my behalf. I urge anyone (BlizeH?) who has had similar experiences to contact Alderney and make a complaint as in numbers I feel we will have some success.

That's good news. It would be worth sending a PM to Max so that he knows Alderney are investigating, as it might be worth his while waiting on that before duplicating effort through the PAB process.

Hopefully, Alderney will find out what is REALLY going on here, as the tale simply does not make sense, not even the posted chat logs, where they contradict themselves all the time.

Regulators do not allow "F U Clauses" to be invoked without very good reason. The fact that such terms exist does not make them legal, and Alderney can overrule this term, and force them to remove it if they believe it has been used on a player whose only crime was being lucky.

I am still a little puzzled as to how they can be licenced with Alderney, yet not exist on the Alderney site under the name that appears on their licence.
I DID eventually find a full list of licences issued the year before, 2005, and a list of applicants. Not a whiff of PKR in any form at all.

Their response does though indicate they ARE licenced there, as if they were not, the last thing they would want is to have you engage with the official disputes process with Alderney, whereupon they would be found out.
They must hold their licence under a different name.

[GaryWatson]

They are listed here

http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/index.php?page=19

[blizeH]

Seems I have to wait for the security checks to be processed before they can discuss the promotions issue - they're sure taking their sweet time with it though!